Hatsu 2025 discussion (results)

[Koorifuu 990]

23 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Unkuryu

"Sorry, you can't add more reactions today."

[Koorifuu 990]

19 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

An op-ed in Sponichi claims that the majority of the judging department's members were not in favour of recommending promotion, and quotes words of praise for Hoshoryu's efforts by department boss Takadagawa, who also says that he essentially took charge of the (apparently not at all straight-forward) situation and make the decision to go for it.

Sounds like 'Doing things traditionally at all costs vs those with enough financial acumen to know when to bend a little".

[Asashosakari 19,309]

24 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

Sounds like 'Doing things traditionally at all costs vs those with enough financial acumen to know when to bend a little".

Sumo is already booming, a Hoshoryu promotion would hardly move the needle significantly. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned installing a new yokozuna just to have one instead of none would be much more of an indication of a misplaced focus on tradition.

Edited January 27 by Asashosakari

[lackmaker 437]

8 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

But if he's 11-4 in March as a yokozuna, then not only does the sport have the grand champion it wants, he just proved he belongs there.

Guess that very much depends on the losses and the quality of his sumo. It's likely to get a mixed reaction.

[Jakusotsu 5,960]

24 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Sumo is already booming, a Hoshoryu promotion would hardly move the needle significantly. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned installing a new yokozuna just to have one instead of none would be much more of an indication of a misplaced focus on tradition.

Depends on how important it is considered to have a yokozuna dohyo-iri in London. But then again, that koen will most likely be sold-out and many of the punters won't care anyway.

[Asashosakari 19,309]

2 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Depends on how important it is considered to have a yokozuna dohyo-iri in London. But then again, that koen will most likely be sold-out and many of the punters won't care anyway.

Yeah, I'm pretty much envisioning one sumo-savvy audience member saying, "such a shame we won't get to see a yokozuna dohyo-iri", and 9 out of 10 people in adjacent seats going, "a what?"

[Morning 78]

They could have the bow twirler up-front, that used to be yokozuna duty once upon a time, didn't it? And the bow twirling doesn't get enough appreciation anyway what with everyone running out to get the train.

[Koorifuu 990]

38 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Depends on how important it is considered to have a yokozuna dohyo-iri in London. But then again, that koen will most likely be sold-out and many of the punters won't care anyway.

This is what I was thinking. They did promise London a yokozuna, with everything that entails. The big guy at the very top that everyone's aiming at, the yokozuna dohyoiri, etc. I'm sure most people won't notice the actual difference, but they'll still be aware there's no big kahuna. It's like pretending your tennis tournament is a Grand Slam but there's no #1, people are going to know that. And neutrals love a good 'the best vs everyone' sports story.

Besides, it's still a matter of optics - it wouldn't look good for them to come out saying 'Yeah, well, we were wrong. It turns out there's no grand champion here after all'.

Edited January 27 by Koorifuu

[Kaninoyama 1,777]

NHK reporting that the promotion is a done deal. 

Edited January 27 by Kaninoyama

[Leoben 139]

I remember reading a quote from someone, can't remember who, that said something like the hard work actually starts when you make Yokozuna. I'd like to think that ifwhen Hoshoryu is confirmed as #74, he'll take this to heart and do everything in his power to maintain the level of excellence the rank demands.

On the one hand the rush of reaching the pinnacle of the sport must be incredible, but on the other it must feel terrifying to know that you are no longer allowed to make mistakes, like you're constantly balancing on the edge of the abyss. You're up there alone and everyone is watching every move you make and there is zero tolerance for error. I know professional athletes think differently from us, but the psychology of the position of yokozuna is so unique and fascinating even within pro sports.

Edited January 27 by Leoben

[Kaninoyama 1,777]

30 minutes ago, Leoben said:

I'd like to think that if Hoshoryu is confirmed as #74, he'll take this to heart and do everything in his power to maintain the level of excellence the rank demands.

He's been confirmed. And we can now only hope you're right. 

[Hankegami 537]

Apologies for being late to the party - I am even posting after Hoshoryu has been officially confirmed as Yokozuna as per @Kaninoyama's report here. I will try to make up for it with a hefty contribution to the ongoing discussion.

A rapid query on Sumo db (here) shows every known 12-13 wins, 25/30 Y or JY results from Ozeki. The cases which are of interest for us (yusho + equivalent combination) are: Wakanohana I (promoted), Kashiwado (denied), Tamanoshima (future Tamanoumi, denied), Kitanofuji (promoted), Hokutoumi (promoted), Kaio (denied), Takakeisho (denied). I posted the same search a while ago and, again, it's a mixed bag. Both Kashiwado and Tamanoshima were later promoted with questionable results, but it is understood that their previous run was also considered in those decisions. Kaio failed to hit the 13 wins benchmark he was explicitly demanded for by the Committee, and Takakeisho was asked for a third strong showing. Many in this forum know the cases of Kaio and Takakeisho from first-hand experience, so I will discuss them separately.

What stands out for both Kaio and Takaeisho are two things 1) their outstanding number of career yusho, and 2) their history of injuries. Kaio had been kadoban 5 times by the time of his tsuna run (including an instance in Hatsu 2003 when he would have been demoted, were not for the kosho seido system which allowed him to sit out one tournament without repercussions). Takaeisho had been kadoban 2 times before his run, including one instance in which he was demoted to Sekiwake only to regain his Ozeki rank in the following tournament.

Now, I already argued in other posts in this thread that I was not 100% on board with promoting Hoshoryu. However, I am also trying to understand what the Committee is thinking. As others have already brought up, Hoshoryu is a successful Ozeki with another Yusho, two career jun-yusho, and a string of 18 basho without a MK. He doesn't have a history of frequent injuries, and in the overall he promises to be a reliable presence on the dohyo. By those measurements, he surely constitutes a better bet than Kaio and Takakeisho. His promotion still fells a bit rushed, but on the brighter side he surely stepped up since Kyushu. His sumo looks like the updated version of Kirishima (who fares very well whenever not injured) but without his downsides (recurring neck injury). In short, yes, I think the NSK is promoting him because they are not really at ease with leaving the Yokozuna spot empty, but Hoshoryu is not a bad bet. He's more experienced than Onosato, and has less issues than Kotozakura - as showed in this basho. He can be the top dog for a while, at least until someone else shows up (Onosato when he finally wakes up?).

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

To be fair, Houshouryuu has been looking quite awesome from day 10 on, and Shirley on senshuraku. The only question in my mind is Unryu or Shiranui?

That's a far more complex question than some might think about. Tatsunami-beya was home of both Unryu (Futabayama) and Shiranui practitioners (Haguroyama, Futahaguro), with a recent tradition leaning more toward Shiranui through Futahaguro (also, Haguroyama once was the stable master, while Futabayama branched off to found Tokitsukaze-beya). However, I personally think he will choose Unryu for a number of reasons 1) He will be already promoted with a questionable record - he doesn't need to make things worse by taking up Futahaguro's style; 2) His uncle practiced Unryu - family matters; 3) His Ozeki rival Kotozakura (also with good chances to get the rope on the long run) is going to choose Shiranui for sure; 4) Mongolian Yokozuna used both styles, but Shiranui was famously used by Hakuho and Harumafuji (not the most popular guys in the Association), while Unryu was used by Kakuryu, the 'good boy' of the bunch; 4b) Again about Harumafuji, he doesn't want to be associated with an infamous kinboshi dispenser especially if he's widely maligned to become another one. In general, choosing Unryu over Shiranui would avoid comparisons with the worst part of the legacies of Futahaguro and Harumafuji, at the same time "hiding in the woods" his association with Asashoryu through a widely used style (also, I bet he would do a Takanohana & Kakuryu style Unryu dohyo-iri - down with the chest - just to distance himself further by his uncle's stand-up version of the entrance). Extra props if Kotozakura becomes Yokozuna and they can showcase their rivalry also through their different styles.

[Shikona 148]

One more thought on how strong Hoshoryu's performance was despite losing three. Look at everyone who got double digit wins. Hoshoryu was matched with six out of seven and his result was 6 wins. And of course the dominant three bouts on the last day. Yes, it's a 12-3 yusho, but as good a 12-3 yusho as could possibly be.

[RabidJohn 1,777]

1 hour ago, Hankegami said:

That's a far more complex question than some might think about. Tatsunami-beya was home of both Unryu (Futabayama) and Shiranui practitioners (Haguroyama, Futahaguro), with a recent tradition leaning more toward Shiranui through Futahaguro (also, Haguroyama once was the stable master, while Futabayama branched off to found Tokitsukaze-beya). However, I personally think he will choose Unryu for a number of reasons 1) He will be already promoted with a questionable record - he doesn't need to make things worse by taking up Futahaguro's style; 2) His uncle practiced Unryu - family matters; 3) His Ozeki rival Kotozakura (also with good chances to get the rope on the long run) is going to choose Shiranui for sure; 4) Mongolian Yokozuna used both styles, but Shiranui was famously used by Hakuho and Harumafuji (not the most popular guys in the Association), while Unryu was used by Kakuryu, the 'good boy' of the bunch; 4b) Again about Harumafuji, he doesn't want to be associated with an infamous kinboshi dispenser especially if he's widely maligned to become another one. In general, choosing Unryu over Shiranui would avoid comparisons with the worst part of the legacies of Futahaguro and Harumafuji, at the same time "hiding in the woods" his association with Asashoryu through a widely used style (also, I bet he would do a Takanohana & Kakuryu style Unryu dohyo-iri - down with the chest - just to distance himself further by his uncle's stand-up version of the entrance). Extra props if Kotozakura becomes Yokozuna and they can showcase their rivalry also through their different styles.

Great analysis. I'm having a bet with myself that he'll go Unryu, but I'm also wondering who's available within the ichimon to teach him either style.

[Hankegami 537]

51 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Great analysis. I'm having a bet with myself that he'll go Unryu, but I'm also wondering who's available within the ichimon to teach him either style.

Thanks a lot. My guess is Musashimaru in any case. He's the only Dewanoumi Yokozuna to be an active oyakata. In my analysis in the other topic (here), I point out that Yokozuna from the same ichimon take absolute precedence. Even in case of Hoshoryu opting for Shiranui, I expect Musashimaru to teach him the style upon consultation with especially Isegahama. Taiho did the same by teaching Kotozakura the style despite being an Unryu practitioner himself.

 

EDIT: Italian blogger ItalianiOzeki just confirmed that Hoshoryu will choose Unryu, officially because it has been the traditional style of all Dewanoumi Yokozuna. Tatsunami originally belonged to the Isegahama ichimon (hence the Shiranui tradition), but they shifted to Dewanoumi in 2018 because of the Takanohana issue. Hoshoryu will get his tsuna made and will be taught the dohyo-iri by Musashimaru on the 30th, as per ItalianiOzeki.

Edited January 27 by Hankegami

[Washuyama 641]

I'm hoping Asashoryu steps in and helps provide a little instruction...

[Ryoshishokunin 286]

1 hour ago, Hankegami said:

EDIT: Italian blogger ItalianiOzeki just confirmed that Hoshoryu will choose Unryu, officially because it has been the traditional style of all Dewanoumi Yokozuna. Tatsunami originally belonged to the Isegahama ichimon (hence the Shiranui tradition), but they shifted to Dewanoumi in 2018 because of the Takanohana issue. Hoshoryu will get his tsuna made and will be taught the dohyo-iri by Musashimaru on the 30th, as per ItalianiOzeki.

Note: Tatsunami belonged to the Tatsunami ichimon (for a long stretch Tatsunami-Isegahama).  It's odd to me that it's wound up in Dewanoumi, but for all the talk of tradition there's always some oddities.   Even the name-holder for the ichimon isn't a dictator, it turns out.

[Kintamayama 45,093]

1 hour ago, Washuyama said:

I'm hoping Asashoryu steps in and helps provide a little instruction...

I read that the relationship between them lately is "tense". It was reported that Asa told him to lay off the weights during the basho to avoid injuries but he didn't. In the end, They patched things up, or so they say.

Edited January 27 by Kintamayama

[Reonito 1,449]

19 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

(Also, I hope that this won't be just a "we need a replacement yokozuna now" promotion after which the next guys will be asked to adhere to tougher requirements again because "we already have Hoshoryu". That would annoy me immensely.)

I guess the question is, what is the standard and did the relax it? Obviously YY will do it under any plausible circumstances, but we haven't seen that since 2012. So it's the pesky "equivalent." I don't think they're going back to EE in all but the most unusual scenarios. So it's EY or Ye, but what counts as E? Clearly, "any JY" (or even "any D") won't work, nor will a simple win total, so it has to be somewhat subjective. In Hoshoryu's case, there weren't a lot of objections to counting a 13-2 finish after going into day 15 tied at 13-1 with the 14-1 winner. Once they said so officially (is that the objection here?), a reasonable Y would complete the run. I suppose we could try something cumbersome like "JY or D with at least 12 wins, being in the yusho race going into day 15, finishing no more than a win behind the champion, who has to be ranked Y/O," which maybe roughly what they're implicitly doing...

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,269]

Hoshoryu really had the legs underneath him for the playoff - a really nice study of sumo being done through the legs.

I didn’t think they’d promote him. I am surprised people are cranky about it though. If they hadn’t promoted him people would’ve been upset they let his uncles past actions affect their judgement, there’s really no crowd pleasing decision here it seems.

[Akinomaki 40,421]

What can be done to get rid of this equivalent myth - there is no such thing in the rules, a sort of mistranslation, an idea in the foreign community, derived from an analysis of relatively recent past promotions, but not from reading it anywhere in Japanese information. The rules allow a promotion with any JJ, they DEMAND a promotion for any YY, that's all - the rest is up to the mood of the NSK administration, the banzuke makers, and the YDC.

A 6-9 at the bottom end of makuuchi can remain in makuuchi, though that was impossible  some time ago - a change of banzuke making fashion happens all the time

Edited January 27 by Akinomaki

[RabidJohn 1,777]

Hakkaku riji-cho has quietly guided things back to the way they used to be when he got his promotion as Hokutoumi.

Back then it was almost like a periodic review of yusho-winning ozeki, taking three, four or more basho into account.

That definitely applies to Kisenosato's promotion, and probably to Hoshoryu's as well.

[Yubinhaad 11,659]

Sad to see that Kainoshima stuck to his plan to retire before he turns 30 (in two months). At least he signed off in style with a tasukizori win, although I have to be honest, it looked rather like a crowd-pleasing jungyo bout to me. Asanowaka was obviously aware it was Kainoshima's last bout, as he hot-footed it round to the east hanamichi to present him with flowers as he walked back!

 

 

[Kamitsuumi 399]

The equivalent thing isn't made up. Take this excerpt from this NHK article:

横綱審議委員会は内規で大関で2場所連続優勝した力士を横綱に推薦することを原則とし、これに準ずる成績をあげた力士を横綱に推薦する場合は、出席した委員の3分の2以上の決議が必要と定めています。

My translation:

According to the Yokozuna Deliberation Council rules, in principle an Ozeki with two consecutive yusho shall be recommended for promotion to Yokozuna; in the case where a rikishi with equivalent results is to be recommended for promotion, a two thirds majority of the members present is necessary.

Edited January 27 by Kamitsuumi

[Akinomaki 40,421]

7 minutes ago, Kamitsuumi said:

The equivalent thing isn't made up. Take this excerpt from this NHK article:

横綱審議委員会は内規で大関で2場所連続優勝した力士を横綱に推薦することを原則とし、これに準ずる成績をあげた力士を横綱に推薦する場合は、出席した委員の3分の2以上の決議が必要と定めています。

My translation:

According to the Yokozuna Deliberation Council rules, in principle an Ozeki with two consecutive yusho shall be recommended for promotion to Yokozuna; in the case where a rikishi with equivalent results is to be recommended for promotion, a two thirds majority of the members present is necessary.

That is the usual misleading translation - 準ずる成績 is not equal equivalent - it may seem so, but it is just the jun-yusho