rhyen 1,833 Posted Monday at 14:59 Has anyone ever compiled a list of former yokozuna who taught the new yokozuna the dohyo iri? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaitetsu 288 Posted Monday at 16:41 (edited) 17 hours ago, rhyen said: Has anyone ever compiled a list of former yokozuna who taught the new yokozuna the dohyo iri? I dont recall seeing one, but off the top of my head I can recall, mostly based on photos Ive seen online: Takanohana taught-> Kakuryu Asahifuji taught-> Hakuho, Harumafuji, Terunofuji Akebono taught-> Asashoryu Edit: Im now going throught the internet and found photos of: Wakanohana I taught-> Onokuni taught-> Kisenosato Sadanoyama taught-> Mienoumi taught-> Musashimaru Takanosato taught-> Wakanohana III Chiyonoyama taught-> Kitanofuji taught-> Chiyonofuji taught -> Hokutoumi Taiho taught-> Wajima, Kotozakura (surprising but there is a photo that corroborates that), Tamanoumi Tochigiyama taught-> Tochinishiki taught-> Tochinoumi, Kitanoumi P.S.: Although I couldnt find direct photos, its only logical that Kitanofuji taught Hokutoumi too (Hankegami corrected me on this one) and that Wakanohana I taught Wakanohana II Edited Tuesday at 08:52 by Kaitetsu 2 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Washuyama 639 Posted Monday at 18:30 1 hour ago, Kaitetsu said: Wakanohana I taught Wakanohana II With the assistance of Wajima, I believe... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hankegami 482 Posted Monday at 18:53 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kaitetsu said: P.S.: Although I couldnt find direct photos, its only logical that Kitanofuji taught Hokutoumi too and that Wakanohana I taught Wakanohana II. Also I can only imagine that Tochinishiki taught Tochinoumi I remember from a documentary about Chiyonofuji that Chiyonofuji himself taught Hokutoumi, not Kitanofuji. I guess it was a deal between the three of them. Also, Tochigiyama taught Tochinishiki. It's all over the place in their dohyo-iri. I think it was also shown in another documentary about 1950s sumo, but I'm less sure about this. EDIT: I second that Taiho taught Kotozakura. I think that there was no shiranui practitioner available for Kotozakura (Yoshibayama was still alive but perhaps undisposed), so I guess Taiho had to look after the style himself. Edited Monday at 18:56 by Hankegami 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gernobono 463 Posted Monday at 19:23 Akebono taught Asashoryu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hankegami 482 Posted Tuesday at 21:37 Out of curiosity, I tried to dig somewhat deeper than photographic evidence can give us. Among other things, I noticed the following patterns. The new yokozuna has free of choice in choosing his style, with asterisks. General freedom: Kisenosato chose Unryu despite his late oyakata (Takanosato) were a Shiranui practictioner. Referencing is still strong: the vast majority of Shiranui practictioner belong to the Isegahama ichimon - and that's not because of Asahifuji. It can be traced back to Tachiyama, the first modern practitioner of this style. Besides from exception, a yokozuna deshi almost always follows the style of his yokozuna Oyakata. The teacher virtually always belong to the same ichimon of the new Yokozuna. Teachers from other ichimon actually appear barred from teaching the dohyo-iri new yokozuna from another ichimon. The only documented exception to that is Takanohana (Takanohana) teaching Kakuryu (Tokitsukaze) - but the Tokitsukaze Ichimon had literally no Yokozuna available. By the rule mentioned above, Kakuryu should have been taught by Kashiwado - who died sixteen years before his promotion. Kotozakura (I) was taught by Taiho (same Nihonoseki ichimon) likely because the Yoshibayama belonged to the Isegahama ichimon. The Oyakata (whether being a yokozuna who practiced the same style) is the preferential teacher over other yokozuna of the same ichimon. Those considerations helped me to re-create the most likely "lineages", going back to the late 19th century but not before, for reasons I will explain in the following lines, including little evidence for an ichimon system before this time. The first 5 Yokozuna up to Onomatsu didn't have anyone that could tech them the style - it was also very new back then. I also believe that the yokozuna dohyo-iri was once the same dohyo-iri made in group by the other wrestlers. The latter became increasingly stylized as the number of wrestlers increased and room for movements was reduced. There was then little reason to believe that they were taught the movements by anyone but their oyakata himself as the basic dohyo-iri. Things start to be more complicated with the elevation of Inazuma as the 7th Yokozuna (1830), while the 6th Yokozuna Onomatsu was still active. It is not impossible that Onomatsu taught the dohyo-iri to Inazuma, but I think it's unlikely. There was no such tradition back then, and there is no evidence that the dohyo-iri already represented the status symbol it became later on. Anyway, Inazuma himself didn't become an oyakata after his retirement (1839) apparently, although both him and Onomatsu could have been around when the 8th Yokozuna Shiranui (I) was elevated to the rank (1840). Also, Onomatsu and Shiranui were both oyakata when the 9th yokozuna Hidenoyama got the rank (1847). However, their involvement in either case it's pure speculation. Then we come to the first "dohyo-iri stars" of Ozumo, the 10th Yokozuna Unryu (1861) and the 11th, Shiranui II (1863). It is most likely that Unryu created his style himself (paradoxically the Shiranui style), while in the latter case we have the first virtually ascertained passage, Shiranui I > Shiranui II, he former being the oyakata of the latter. For those who didn't catch up with the news, it is virtually certain today that Unryu invented the Shiranui style, and Shiranui II the Unryu style, only for their names to be mixed up later on. The main piece of evidence is an 1869 photo of Shiranui II and newly promoted 13th Yokozuna Kimenzan (see here), the former showing the unryu style to the left, while the other mimicking the Shiranui style to the right - there are several other photos showing Shiranui doing Unryu, so they weren't imitating each other there. That's also enough evidence for concluding that also Kimenzan used the Shiranui, which give us the passage Unryu > Kimenzan (1869), Unryu being an oyakata at the time. That's harder to say who taught the 12th Yokozuna Jinmaku (1867, a documented Unryu practitioner) and the 14th Yokozuna Sakaigawa (1877). In theory, Unryu was still alive back then (died 1879), but their promotion is to be framed in the context of the Boshin War, which destabilized also the sumo world and produced several unofficial Yokozuna in absence of a recognized authority. We reach some safer ground with the 15th Yokozuna, Umegatani I (promoted 1884). Although not assured, it is likely that we have Sakaigawa > Umegatani I. Both men belonged to the Dewanoumi ichimon (if more modern factions are to be trusted), and anyway Sakaigawa was the only Yokozuna that remained as an oyakata (Jinmaku covered several official posts in his retirement). The death of Sakaigawa himself in 1887 also leaves Umegatani I as the only available teacher for Nishinoumi I (1890), while it is possible that the latter taught his stablemate Konishiki the ritual (1896). The same might have been done by Konishiki when Ozutsu was promoted (1901). Also, notice that those Yokozuna, from Nishinoumi I to Ozutsu, were successive - a new one was selected when the previous retired. Teaching the style might have constituted a moment of "passing the torch", possibly. After him, both Hitachiyama and Umegatani II (1903) were likely taught by Umegatani I, being all part of the Dewanoumi ichimon. Therefore, we have the following likely succession schemes leading to the present day: Spoiler Sakaigawa (likely self-taught, 1877) died 1887 - Dewanoumi main line Umegatani I (1884), Ikazuchi-oyakata, 1885-1915 (died 1928) Dewanoumi Nishinoumi I (1890), Takasago > Tokitsukaze Konishiki (1896) Takasago Ozutsu (1901), Nihonoseki deshi Nishinoumi II (1916) Tokitsukaze deshi Nishinoumi III (1923) Tokitsukaze Hitachiyama (1903) Dewanoumi Tachiyama (1911) Isegahama - CONJECTURE Wikipedia reports that he was often coached by Hitachiyama ototo-deshi Otori (1915) Isegahama - CONJECTURE Tachiyama was the only yokozuna in the ichimon back then Futabayama (1937) Isegahama > Tokitsukaze - LIKELY Otori was the only option available for the ichimon Maedayama (1947) Takasago - CONJECTURE Takasago did not have yokozuna, and Maedayama was close to Futabayama deshi Azumafuji (1948) Takasago deshi Asashio III (1959) Takasago deshi Kagamisato (1953) Tokitsukaze Kashiwado (1961) Tokitsukaze Wakanohana I (1958) Nihonoseki - CONJECTURE Nihonoseki did not have a living yokozuna, also Futabayama gave Wakanohana his kensho-mawashi since the ichimon didn't have any. Taiho (1961) Nihonoseki - LIKELY Wakanohana was the only yokozuna in the ichimon Tamanoumi (1970) Nihonoseki Kotozakura (1973) Nihonoseki Takanosato (1983) Nihonoseki - LIKELY only other Shiranui practitioner in the ichimon Futahaguro (1986) Isegahama - CONJECTURE Isegahama had no yokozuna alive, they shared the same Shiranui style, and Futahaguro was much promoted to cover for Takanosato's retirement Asahifuji (1990) Isegahama - CONJECTURE Same reasons, either him or Kotozakura Hakuho (2007) Isegahama Harumafuji (2012) Isegahama Terunofuji (2021) Isegahama Wakanohana III (1998) Nihonoseki Wajima (1974) Nihonoseki Wakanohana II (1978) Nihonoseki > Takanohana > Isegahama Onokuni (1987) Nihonoseki Takanohana (1994) Nihonoseki LIKELY With Wakanohana I retired, Onokuni was the only option besides Wakanohana II, which had probably a bad relationship with the Hanada family back then. Kakuryu (2014) Tokitsukaze Kisenosato (2017) Nihonoseki Haguroyama (1941) Isegahama - LIKELY especially since Otori was possibly taught by Tachiyama, who also practiced Shiranui Yoshibayama (1954) Isegahama - LIKELY only other Shiranui practitioner in the ichimon Terukuni (1942) Isegahama - LIKELY unless Futabayama taught him instead deshi Onishiki (1914) Dewanoumi deshi Tochigiyama (1918) Dewanoumi Tamanishiki (1932) Nihonoseki - CONJECTURE Wikipedia reports that he was often coached by Tochigiyama ototo-deshi Minanogawa (1936) Nihonoseki - CONJECTURE Tamanishiki was the only yokozuna in the ichimon back then deshi Tochinishiki (1954), Dewanoumi deshi Tochinoumi (1964), Dewanoumi Sadanoyama (1968) Dewanoumi - LIKELY Tochinishiki was the only yokozuna left in the ichimon back then Mienoumi (1979) Dewanoumi Musashimaru (1999) Dewanoumi Kitanoumi (1974), Dewanoumi deshi Umegatani II (1903), Dewanoumi Tsunenohana (1924) Dewanoumi - CONJECTURE Umegatani II was the only oyakata available in the ichimon ototo-deshi Musashiyama (1935) Dewanoumi ototo-deshi Akinoumi (1942) Dewanoumi deshi Chiyonoyama (1951) Dewanoumi > Takasago deshi Kitanofuji (1970) Takasago deshi Chiyonofuji (1981) Takasago ototo-deshi Hokutoumi (1987) Takasago Akebono (1993) Takasago - CONJECTURE Akebono needed a Takasago teacher, and Hokutoumi had yet to teach anyone Asashoryu (1993) Takasago 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaitetsu 288 Posted Wednesday at 14:35 16 hours ago, Hankegami said: Therefore, we have the following likely succession schemes leading to the present day: Reveal hidden contents Sakaigawa (likely self-taught, 1877) died 1887 - Dewanoumi main line Umegatani I (1884), Ikazuchi-oyakata, 1885-1915 (died 1928) Dewanoumi Nishinoumi I (1890), Takasago > Tokitsukaze Konishiki (1896) Takasago Ozutsu (1901), Nihonoseki deshi Nishinoumi II (1916) Tokitsukaze deshi Nishinoumi III (1923) Tokitsukaze Hitachiyama (1903) Dewanoumi Tachiyama (1911) Isegahama - CONJECTURE Wikipedia reports that he was often coached by Hitachiyama ototo-deshi Otori (1915) Isegahama - CONJECTURE Tachiyama was the only yokozuna in the ichimon back then Futabayama (1937) Isegahama > Tokitsukaze - LIKELY Otori was the only option available for the ichimon Maedayama (1947) Takasago - CONJECTURE Takasago did not have yokozuna, and Maedayama was close to Futabayama deshi Azumafuji (1948) Takasago deshi Asashio III (1959) Takasago deshi Kagamisato (1953) Tokitsukaze Kashiwado (1961) Tokitsukaze Wakanohana I (1958) Nihonoseki - CONJECTURE Nihonoseki did not have a living yokozuna, also Futabayama gave Wakanohana his kensho-mawashi since the ichimon didn't have any. Taiho (1961) Nihonoseki - LIKELY Wakanohana was the only yokozuna in the ichimon Tamanoumi (1970) Nihonoseki Kotozakura (1973) Nihonoseki Takanosato (1983) Nihonoseki - LIKELY only other Shiranui practitioner in the ichimon Futahaguro (1986) Isegahama - CONJECTURE Isegahama had no yokozuna alive, they shared the same Shiranui style, and Futahaguro was much promoted to cover for Takanosato's retirement Asahifuji (1990) Isegahama - CONJECTURE Same reasons, either him or Kotozakura Hakuho (2007) Isegahama Harumafuji (2012) Isegahama Terunofuji (2021) Isegahama Wakanohana III (1998) Nihonoseki Wajima (1974) Nihonoseki Wakanohana II (1978) Nihonoseki > Takanohana > Isegahama Onokuni (1987) Nihonoseki Takanohana (1994) Nihonoseki LIKELY With Wakanohana I retired, Onokuni was the only option besides Wakanohana II, which had probably a bad relationship with the Hanada family back then. Kakuryu (2014) Tokitsukaze Kisenosato (2017) Nihonoseki Haguroyama (1941) Isegahama - LIKELY especially since Otori was possibly taught by Tachiyama, who also practiced Shiranui Yoshibayama (1954) Isegahama - LIKELY only other Shiranui practitioner in the ichimon Terukuni (1942) Isegahama - LIKELY unless Futabayama taught him instead deshi Onishiki (1914) Dewanoumi deshi Tochigiyama (1918) Dewanoumi Tamanishiki (1932) Nihonoseki - CONJECTURE Wikipedia reports that he was often coached by Tochigiyama ototo-deshi Minanogawa (1936) Nihonoseki - CONJECTURE Tamanishiki was the only yokozuna in the ichimon back then deshi Tochinishiki (1954), Dewanoumi deshi Tochinoumi (1964), Dewanoumi Sadanoyama (1968) Dewanoumi - LIKELY Tochinishiki was the only yokozuna left in the ichimon back then Mienoumi (1979) Dewanoumi Musashimaru (1999) Dewanoumi Kitanoumi (1974), Dewanoumi deshi Umegatani II (1903), Dewanoumi Tsunenohana (1924) Dewanoumi - CONJECTURE Umegatani II was the only oyakata available in the ichimon ototo-deshi Musashiyama (1935) Dewanoumi ototo-deshi Akinoumi (1942) Dewanoumi deshi Chiyonoyama (1951) Dewanoumi > Takasago deshi Kitanofuji (1970) Takasago deshi Chiyonofuji (1981) Takasago ototo-deshi Hokutoumi (1987) Takasago Akebono (1993) Takasago - CONJECTURE Akebono needed a Takasago teacher, and Hokutoumi had yet to teach anyone Asashoryu (1993) Takasago This whole post is fascinating research!! Thank you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seiyashi 4,074 Posted Thursday at 17:03 This should go on UsefulCharts. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhyen 1,833 Posted Friday at 07:21 One of the cheekiest things I saw today was the NSK 100th anniversary calendar with the historical list of yokozuna. Isegahama heya highlighted Asahifuji, Hakuho, Harumafuji & Terunofuji. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morning 77 Posted Friday at 08:50 1 hour ago, rhyen said: One of the cheekiest things I saw today was the NSK 100th anniversary calendar with the historical list of yokozuna. Isegahama heya highlighted Asahifuji, Hakuho, Harumafuji & Terunofuji. One of those is not like the others. Terunofuji has no h in his name and was still active at time of printing, I wouldn't call that historical. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
