Yokozuna Hoshoryu

[junsan 191]

A lot of old Japanese use Gaijin-san also in a polite manner. Indeed, in the Showa-era that was quite the norm. Gaikokujin usage became more apparent Heisei onwards.

[RabidJohn 1,786]

I won't be around when it comes to pass, but I know exactly how this Heisei generation will feel when their kids and grandkids tell them, "You can't say that now!"

[Gospodin 191]

3 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I can't read Japanese, so I don't know whether he is or not, but being proud of and wanting to preserve your nation's heritage from foreign influence is simply nationalist. It'd be called patriotic in the USA.

For sure, it's a view that becoming somewhat distasteful and increasingly hard to maintain in a globalised world, but racism is a long way across the spectrum from this, IMHO.

IMHO there´s a major difference between "world sports" and those that are distictively linked to a certain nation or region, and more deeply ingrained in culture. Correct me if am wrong, but I do not remember a single cricketer, footballer, tennis player, baseballer or track and field athlete who was, personally, frowned upon because of his nationality. Underestimated, perhaps.

[edit: reasons out of their control, like politics, not included]

Edited January 29 by Gospodin

[just_some_guy 278]

To bring it back to the "number of yusho" concerns... I think it's premature to cite his current pace of yusho when A) the first and last are the bookends of the time we're looking at and B) I think it's safe to say his sumo has improved since yusho #1 and still is improving. Whether he's going to be a "good" yokozuna or a "bad" one is very much still up in the air and any speculation is almost entirely guesswork.

Reflecting some more on his "soft" promotion (which I still agree it is), they sort of set it up to happen by declaring him to be on a tsuna run ahead of time. Once that declaration landed it's pretty much a given that a yusho of any sort (can you imagine the shouting if he'd won it at 11-4?) would get the promotion and it'd be a weird look if it didn't.

Unless, of course there was some "he's on a tsuna run but needs a very strong yusho" wording that I missed.

[Akinomaki 40,481]

6 minutes ago, just_some_guy said:

Reflecting some more on his "soft" promotion (which I still agree it is), they sort of set it up to happen by declaring him to be on a tsuna run ahead of time. Once that declaration landed it's pretty much a given that a yusho of any sort (can you imagine the shouting if he'd won it at 11-4?) would get the promotion and it'd be a weird look if it didn't.

Unless, of course there was some "he's on a tsuna run but needs a very strong yusho" wording that I missed.

He most likely would have been promoted together with Kotozakura even with a repeat of last basho, 13-2 and Kotozakura the yusho, they all were enthusiastic about a double promotion.

[just_some_guy 278]

11 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

He most likely would have been promoted together with Kotozakura even with a repeat of last basho, 13-2 and Kotozakura the yusho, they all were enthusiastic about a double promotion.

I can't claim to see inside their minds, but if ever a Yokozuna promotion happens without a yusho involved I will be very surprised.

[Dapeng 235]

8 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

He most likely would have been promoted together with Kotozakura even with a repeat of last basho, 13-2 and Kotozakura the yusho, they all were enthusiastic about a double promotion.

Sure, 13-2 is a yusho score these days. In recent 3 years, more than half of the yushos were 12-3 or worse. On average, almost 2 wins less than the 20-years' long Asa-Haku era. Look at Terunofuji's 10 yushos: 5 were 12-3. On the other hand, Hakuho only had 1 yusho of 12-3, out of his 45 career yushos.

[Churaumi 743]

17 minutes ago, just_some_guy said:

I can't claim to see inside their minds, but if ever a Yokozuna promotion happens without a yusho involved I will be very surprised.

It's been done before, but it didn't work out in large part because of who they promoted rather than his sumo. Still, his sumo was good but not good enough to win. Hopefully that lesson doesn't get forgotten, but lessons do tend to vanish from collective memories over time.

[rzombie1988 159]

I don't agree with the promotion. He has too many 11 win bashos or less and even in this era where the competition is not that strong, it won't be enough. I think they were just desperate for a Yokozuna.

[Akinomaki 40,481]

1 hour ago, just_some_guy said:

I can't claim to see inside their minds, but if ever a Yokozuna promotion happens without a yusho involved I will be very surprised.

That happened several times at the beginning of the YDC,  Asashio with 11-4J, 13-2J (before that 14-1Y) - several even without a runner-up result, an 11-4 behind the jun-yusho, esp. Kashiwado and Tamanoumi to promote them together with Taiho and Kitanofuji, 11-4, 12-3D, and 10-5!, 13-2D - much worse than Futahaguro:12-3J, 14-1D.  They are moving back to old times lately (with 100 years of NSK), what happened then can happen again.

[Gospodin 191]

9 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

That happened several times at the beginning of the YDC,  Asashio with 11-4J, 13-2J (before that 14-1Y) - several even without a runner-up result, an 11-4 behind the jun-yusho, esp. Kashiwado and Tamanoumi to promote them together with Taiho and Kitanofuji, 11-4, 12-3D, and 10-5!, 13-2D - much worse than Futahaguro:12-3J, 14-1D.  They are moving back to old times lately (with 100 years of NSK), what happened then can happen again.

Very interesting. But say, in the next 10 to 15 years, what is your opinion of seeing it happen ?

[Akinomaki 40,481]

1 minute ago, Gospodin said:

in the next 10 to 15 years, what is your opinion of seeing it happen ?

Not something like with Kashiwado and Tamanoumi, not even jun-yusho, but like with Asashio a promotion without even a doten, if the need for a yokozuna arises.

[Asapedroryu 235]

This soft promotion or shouldn't have been promoted it's a bit of a nonsense discussion to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the condition for promotion "2 consecutive Yushos"? I've never seen the condition "2 Yushos with X number of wins".

Seems to me the same as to refuse to give the gold medal at the Olympics to the guy that crossed first in the 100 meters because he didn't do it in less than 10 seconds. Sorry, you won, but try again in 4 years...

[Hankegami 537]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

That happened several times at the beginning of the YDC,  Asashio with 11-4J, 13-2J (before that 14-1Y) - several even without a runner-up result, an 11-4 behind the jun-yusho, esp. Kashiwado and Tamanoumi to promote them together with Taiho and Kitanofuji, 11-4, 12-3D, and 10-5!, 13-2D - much worse than Futahaguro:12-3J, 14-1D.  They are moving back to old times lately (with 100 years of NSK), what happened then can happen again.

I always took Kashiwado and Tamanoumi's promotion records to be integrated with their previous results. Kashiwado went 13-2Y 12-3J in Hatsu and Haru 1961 but wasn't promoted in that occasion. Tamanoumi went 12-3J 12-3J 13-2Y between Hatsu and Natsu 1968 but wasn't promoted again. In this sense, they brought a respectable record to back their promotion "on the occasion" (with Taiho and Kitanofuji respectively). They also won a yusho already, which Futahaguro did not.

More generally, I feel that the early NSK was prone to make "thinking back" decisions. The first ever Yokozuna promoted by them, Chiyonoyama, was denied promotion with a 13-2Y 12-3Y back-to-back after Hatsu 1950 'because of his youth' (he was not yet 24). He was then promoted in 1951 with a single 14-1Y after a 8-7 post the previous tournament. The cases of Chiyonoyama and Kashiwado always felt to me like a "we should have promoted him back then" move.

I don't know if we are to take Hoshoryu's promotion as evidence for more things to come, but I still am sceptical about a return to full equivalent results to be considered. The "at least one yusho rule" still stands. Hoshoryu made it, and Kirishima was one humiliating loss away from hitting the same result last year. I cannot see any reason for them to scrap this part of the requirements also.

[Akinomaki 40,481]

The NSK digest

 

[Akinomaki 40,481]

This time we get really detailed reports about the promotion - TV Asahi with the preparations of the tsuna, Hoshoryu took part

tomorrow tsuna making, tsuna-shime and training for the first dohyo-iri, which takes place on Jan.31st at the Meiji shrine, after being handed the yokozuna license

Edited January 29 by Akinomaki

[Yamanashi 3,840]

Over the last year, the current Ozeki had the following # of wins: Onosato 64, Kotozakura 58, Hoshoryu 63 [in 4 of those basho, Onosato was sub-Ozeki in rank].  I think the dream in Kyushu 2024 was that Onosato was going to clean everyone's clock and rush to the tsuna, solving the tricky situation with Terunofuji's health. 

Then he gets only 9 wins, but Kotozakura gets the 14-win Yusho and Hoshoryu gets the 13-win J.  OK, it's Kotozakura who will power through with another Yusho and be the Next Japanese Yokozuna.  But Hoshoryu got a Jun Yusho, so it wouldn't be right to ignore his chances to make the grade in Hatsu 2025.  The dream scenario was Kotozakura Yusho  = Yokozuna, or Hoshoryu Yusho, Kotozakura Jun Yusho = 2 Yokozuna!

Then Kotozakura struggles to get 5 wins.  But the scenario included a Hoshoryu Yusho, so what can they do?  Wait, Hoshoryu lost three times to rank-and-filers with losing records, so a 12-3 Yusho clearly isn't enough.  But he wins a three-way playoff!  So, he gets the rope.  Easy, wasn't it?

[Tochinofuji 384]

5 hours ago, Asapedroryu said:

This soft promotion or shouldn't have been promoted it's a bit of a nonsense discussion to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the condition for promotion "2 consecutive Yushos"? I've never seen the condition "2 Yushos with X number of wins".

Seems to me the same as to refuse to give the gold medal at the Olympics to the guy that crossed first in the 100 meters because he didn't do it in less than 10 seconds. Sorry, you won, but try again in 4 years...

While I don't disagree with you, this wasn't two yusho. This was a jun-yusho followed by a yusho. Adding a JY into the mix makes a "strong" yusho requirement more reasonable, and I thought that was the discussion ahead of the basho itself. 

Regardless, I think this was a soft promotion, but one that I'm not offended by. I do very much hope we see Hoshoryu grow into the role, as that would be quite a lot of fun to see. 

[Gurowake 4,052]

5 hours ago, Asapedroryu said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the condition for promotion "2 consecutive Yushos"?

Two consecutive yusho is a guaranteed promotion.  There is no leeway for that, even if they're both 11-4 or worse.  They are allowed to consider other results that might be seen as equivalent to two yusho in a row, in which case they vote and need a 2/3 majority to approve.  What exactly "equivalent to two yusho in a row" means is up to the individual, but it's clear from what I've seen recently both on these forums recently and an old Japanese blog discussing the promotion of Kisenosato that it's *not* "two results equivalent to a yusho in row".  Kisenosato's 6 tournaments leading up to his promotion was *way* better than 2 yusho in a row by pretty much any standard.  Similarly, a lot of very old promotions were made on the basis of at least a year's worth of results that showed enough consistency that was seen at the time as being equivalent to 2 yusho in row.  This is why the nonpromotion of Konishiki was questioned (at least by Konishiki himself, if no one else - there were no popular internet forums so it's harder to say what the fans thought), because his results showed consistency that might have gotten others promoted in the past. Not until Kisenosato was there again someone who didn't have either two yusho in a row or the obvious equivalent 14-14, but was equivalently consistent over an extended period of time.  They probably would have promoted him much earlier except that they're never going to promote anyone without at least one yusho after Futahaguro.

Edited January 30 by Gurowake

[Reonito 1,457]

48 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Two consecutive yusho is a guaranteed promotion.  There is no leeway for that, even if they're both 11-4 or worse.  They are allowed to consider other results that might be seen as equivalent to two yusho in a row, in which case they vote and need a 2/3 majority to approve. 

My understanding was that they still vote if it's YY, but a simple majority is needed. I'd be surprised if 11/11 resulted in promotion, unless maybe in an era with even more parity than now so that such results become typical (we've seen 14 12-win yusho in the past 10 years, and only 4 in the previous 10).

[Akinomaki 40,481]

4 hours ago, Reonito said:

My understanding was that they still vote if it's YY, but a simple majority is needed. I'd be surprised if 11/11 resulted in promotion, unless maybe in an era with even more parity than now so that such results become typical (we've seen 14 12-win yusho in the past 10 years, and only 4 in the previous 10).

It is no vote, just like there is no vote at the NSK elections, when as usual the number of candidates is that of riji and fukuriji. They discuss and decide without vote. If the rules say, 2 yusho in a row is the promotion, there can only be a unanimous decision.

Edited January 30 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 40,481]

Of course, there is also paragraph one. If the YDC thinks, the ozeki has no hinkaku, they can deny the promotion.

Edit: but then the Shimpan top and the rijicho would not start the promotion in the first place. Paragraph four says that the NSK decides, what hinkaku is

Edited January 30 by Akinomaki

[Kaninoyama 1,787]

Has there ever been an otherwise fully qualified rikishi denied promotion on the grounds of insufficient hinkaku? 

[Akinomaki 40,481]

10 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Has there ever been an otherwise fully qualified rikishi denied promotion on the grounds of insufficient hinkaku? 

Not since the YDC was installed, before the qualification was not codified.

[Akinomaki 40,481]

14 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

tomorrow tsuna making, tsuna-shime and training for the first dohyo-iri, which takes place on Jan.31st at the Meiji shrine, after being handed the yokozuna license

So far I only found a video on Bilibili https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1JbF3eXEe4/

o o o o  

o o

o o  o  o

  o  o

Edited January 30 by Akinomaki