Yokozuna Hoshoryu

[RabidJohn 1,771]

20 hours ago, Hankegami said:

Chiyonofuji being promoted at 26 y 2 m wants a word with you, preferably through a Medium. He's actually the prime example of Yokozuna doing big at 30+, and certainly the guy in @RabidJohn's mind in his previous post.

Actually I was thinking of Hakuho retiring at 36, Kakuryu at 35 and Harumafuji forced to at 33. 

Chiyonofuji is too much of an outlier, winning more yusho after turning 30 than before.

Hoshoryu needs eight more yusho to qualify for the 'dai'. My view is that if he can't do that by the time he's 29, he probably won't do it at all, and will go down in the annals as being a weak yokozuna as well as has having had a weak promotion case. I don't believe he's that bad, though. 

Edited Tuesday at 10:04 by RabidJohn

[DonKordylone 9]

He is going ot stay in the sport for a long time, I kinda hope we’re going to see more of his Sweet side - like with taking this kid along for the parade.

[Hankegami 537]

34 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Hoshoryu needs eight more yusho to qualify for the 'dai'. My view is that if he can't do that by the time he's 29, he won't do it at all, and will go down in the annals as being a weak yokozuna as well as has having had a weak promotion case. I don't believe he's that bad, though. 

Time will tell. Anyway, for "Dai-Yokozuna" I mean getting 20+ Yusho in the 6 basho per year era. I still acknowledge that hitting 10 is already a good deal, but 40% of Yokozuna did that. Getting 10 in the 2 basho era (when the moniker stuck around) was an entirely different issue. Only 5 Yokozuna out of the about 35 from Tokyo sumo to be elevated to the rank before Tochinishiki and Wakanohana I (who hit 10 but in a 4 basho per year era) hit that mark, that is 14%. We can raise up their number to 7 by adding the two Yokozuna who finished their career with 9 Cups but are generally regarded as Dai-Yokozuna nevertheless (Umegatani I, Tochigiyama). That makes 20%. From Taiho onward (#48-73), 6 men out of 26 hit 20+, i.e. 23%. That fits. Personally, I would like there were separate terms to indicate those who hit 10 (which put them in a minority), and those who hit 20+ (the top of the top).

In any case, that's too soon to imagine how far Hoshoryu will get. He already has 2 Yusho and at least 5 years of "reign" (possibly more, most Yokozuna hit 7). Those make up for at least 30 basho. With his current pace (1 Cup every 18 months, or every 9 basho), he can be expected to rack up 3-4 more Yusho for a career total of 5-6. Low-key, but not bad altogether. However, I expect him to increase his pace in the future - he changed his gear only four months ago in Kyushu, we cannot understand how much he's changed just yet. More than anything, we have yet to frame the 2025-2030 period of sumo in its general context. Six career Yusho are perfectly excusable when a Dai-Yokozuna is around. But are we going to get one anytime soon? Onosato is expected to take on this role, but those are expectations and not guarantees.

I think things will be somewhat clearer by Kyushu 2025 - we'll see whether Hoshoryu effectively changed his pace and managed to get at least another Yusho, and what Onosato and Kotozakura did on their own.

Edited Tuesday at 10:33 by Hankegami

[yorikiried by fate 2,027]

I really like how you explain the history of "dai-status" and also your reasoning for re-evaluation.

[Kishinoyama 593]

19 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

Shoutout to ms11e Heavy Drinker. 

The “heavy drinker” had to take “4 breaks”because of all of that heavy drinking. 

[RabidJohn 1,771]

46 minutes ago, Hankegami said:

... for "Dai-Yokozuna" I mean getting 20+ Yusho in the 6 basho per year era. I still acknowledge that hitting 10 is already a good deal, but 40% of Yokozuna did that.

Some years ago I suggested coming up with a separate title to distinguish Taiho, Kitanoumi, Chiyonofuji, Takanohana, Asashoryu and Hakuho from the rest.

The commentators still referred to Terunofuji becoming a dai-yokozuna with his 10th yusho, though.

As I typed the list of O-Dai-yokozuna, I realised there's been one for every decade in the 6bpa era. We're about due another, and I don't believe it's going to be Hoshoryu, so maybe he will end up as more of a Harumafuji/Kakuryu type. Not undeserving, but not truly great.

Edited Tuesday at 11:16 by RabidJohn

[rokudenashi 316]

Dai-dai-yokozuna. They get to wear a bright orange tsuna as a perk of the title.

Edited Tuesday at 11:16 by rokudenashi

[Godango 983]

Since becoming ozeki; Hoshoryu has won 70% of the matches he has been on the dohyo for. 7 out of 10 = 10.5 out of 15. If you include his sekiwake basho' he's still over 69%.

So since November 2022 he's been averaging over 10 wins for every 15 bouts he's actually taken part in. Now he also has the luxury of being able to heal rather than cracking on with niggling injuries (FWIW, he's only missed 5 bouts in his whole career).

He's also only 25 and arguably not yet at the peak of his powers. 

Say what you want about whether you personally think promotion was earned; the dude belongs and his future has looked bright for quite a while.

[RabidJohn 1,771]

28 minutes ago, rokudenashi said:

Dai-dai-yokozuna. 

To provide context, my pre-edited posted said "great-great-yokozuna".

O-Dai-Yokozuna is intended to mean exactly the same, but follows the pronunciation 'precedent' of swords: tachi means greatsword, odachi means great-greatsword.

[Akinomaki 40,406]

8 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Some years ago I suggested coming up with a separate title to distinguish Taiho, Kitanoumi, Chiyonofuji, Takanohana, Asashoryu and Hakuho from the rest.

Kyodai, kakudai - usually tokudai would be appropriate.

On 27/01/2025 at 12:19, Kaninoyama said:

It's official. Committee vote was unanimous. Hoshoryu is our newest Yokozuna. 

The vote was unanimous, but the comments afterwards contained claims that all Mongolian yokozuna so far didn't have the hinkaku of a yokozuna. o

The shimpan department, which has to start the promotion process, was not in majority in favour of doing so, chief Takakagawa pushed for it and apparently decided on his own in the end (edit: he and the 2 deputies, the plain shimpan were mostly against it o) - he had to ask Hakkaku to call for the special rijikai that officially decides the promotion tomorrow, which caused the YDC having to give their vote on it. 

Hoshoryu was 10min. late to the morning after press conference because he was tired from the party

o

he has no other yokozuna as a role model, he wants to create a new one - and he enjoys sumo and wants to keep enjoying it, usually the hardships of the top rank won't allow that - we can excpect some basho with reluctant performances

Edited Tuesday at 20:00 by Akinomaki

[RabidJohn 1,771]

7 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

The vote was unanimous, but the comments afterwards contained claims that all Mongolian yokozuna so far didn't have the hinkaku of a yokozuna.

Lol - I can well imagine some former ozeki being full of sour grapes.

13 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Hoshoryu was 10min. late to the morning after press conference because he was tired from the party

I have no context for this. How punctual are yusho winners expected to be the morning after a piss-up?

[Akinomaki 40,406]

37 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

How punctual are yusho winners expected to be

The whole press and media of the country waiting - I guess it shows lack of hinkaku to be late

[rokudenashi 316]

56 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

To provide context, my pre-edited posted said "great-great-yokozuna".

O-Dai-Yokozuna is intended to mean exactly the same, but follows the pronunciation 'precedent' of swords: tachi means greatsword, odachi means great-greatsword.

Sorry, it was meant as a bad language pun.

 

[RabidJohn 1,771]

17 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

The whole press and media of the country waiting - I guess it shows lack of hinkaku to be late

Oh, I understand the implication, but is this the first time it's ever happened, or is it only being mentioned because it's Hoshoryu?

I see winners turning up late to press conferences all the time in other professional sports; like Lewis Hamilton at the British GP because he was crowd-surfing. No one batted an eyelid, and that was in a season when the FIA president was increasing getting on the drivers' cases over trivial matters.

It all sounds like tabloid muck-raking to me.

[Zenjimoto 40]

Let the teardown of the foreign Yokozuna begin! 

[just_some_guy 276]

3 hours ago, rokudenashi said:

Dai-dai-yokozuna. They get to wear a bright orange tsuna as a perk of the title.

How about "tie-dye-yokozuna?" The rope will be... well, you know.

[Kintamayama 45,086]

21 hours ago, Saburo said:

Unryu-gata, PLEASE!

Unryu it is.

[Kintamayama 45,086]

Who is this oyakata that keeps cropping up in many yusho photos?

[Kaninoyama 1,777]

2 hours ago, Zenjimoto said:

Let the teardown of the foreign Yokozuna begin! 

What some of us are concerned about is that left to his own devices he's going to do that just fine all by himself (especially, as Akinomaki alluded to, with no current sempai-Yokozuna to guide him and his uncle of all people as his confidant and role model (though there are rumblings that the two don't get along anymore--it was telling that during Hatsu Asashoryu was vocal in his support for Kinbozan, and not so much his nephew)). 

As for none of the Mongolians having proper hinkaku, what the hell was wrong with Kakuryu? Or Terunofuji for that matter? 

Edited Tuesday at 15:35 by Kaninoyama

[themistyseas 242]

8 hours ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

Apologies for the rant, but count me among those not happy at all about this promotion. A jun yusho and a lucky come from behind yusho is a very weak case. Takakeisho was snubbed despite multiple superior performances, including a D-Y. he might still be here if he had the ability to rest. And it had to happen to the one guy i can't stand, who also received a weak ozeki promotion below the 33 win standard after a stolen yusho from a missed call. He really only met the 33 win criteria after this basho.

I'm not a massive fan of him either, but might be worth slowing down to take a breather here. Takakeisho can probably have a bit of a bone to pick with it, but I'm not sure he had "multiple superior performances" off the numbers alone. His D-Y was a less impressive 12-3 D 12-3 Y, and he had one equivalent 12-3 J 13-2 Y, but even that had a fusen-sho thrown in (not his fault), and a two way playoff (again, not his fault), so the argument can be made Hoshoryu actually won two more matches over the same period.

I don't really love Hoshoryu's dohyo behaviour but there is at least historical precedent and it's also coming crucially at a time of no-Yokozuna (and where we've even recently seen the Yokozuna-Ozeki deployed due to lack of top rankers). So there was always more likelihood of a soft promotion happening now. It is indeed soft though, since there hasn't been a promotion this weak since the late 80s (Onokuni and Hokutoumi).

It's fair to ask whether it would be poor from Hakkaku not to have asked the YDC to deliberate, given that he himself was promoted with similar results and with a (dominant) Yokozuna already in situ. But equally, statistically, Hoshoryu's Ozeki performance is right up there along with most previous Yokozuna's Ozeki tenures (better than Harumafuji and Kakuryu, even if the promotion platform was worse, and worse than Kisenosato - all of whom faced admittedly stronger opposition), and his win rate at the level is 7% higher than Takakeisho (which is admittedly a bit skewed by the latter's injury-plagued downfall).

There can't really be any perfect comparisons across eras but clearly he will still have plenty to prove.

[rokudenashi 316]

29 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Who is this oyakata that keeps cropping up in many yusho photos?

Wakaimonogashira Tochinofuji

Edited Tuesday at 15:29 by rokudenashi

[Reonito 1,449]

4 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The vote was unanimous, but the comments afterwards contained claims that all Mongolian yokozuna so far didn't have the hinkaku of a yokozuna.

Kakuryu would like a word.

[Hankegami 537]

6 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The vote was unanimous, but the comments afterwards contained claims that all Mongolian yokozuna so far didn't have the hinkaku of a yokozuna. o

The shimpan department, which has to start the promotion process, was not in majority in favour of doing so, chief Takakagawa pushed for it and apparently decided on his own in the end - he had to ask Hakkaku to call for the special rijikai that officially decides the promotion tomorrow, which caused the YDC having to give their vote on it.

There's quite the insistence in this and other articles in portraying him as a troublemaker out of thin air. Although Hoshoryu didn't help by avoiding to discuss any previous Yokozuna as his role model. Another man would have mentioned Futabayama (same stable) who is much good for all seasons in sumo discourse.

Also, the rumors from the decision-making process show there is some factionalism at play. Hoshoryu seems to be backed by the people I expected the least to back him, such as Takadagawa (who until a few months ago was so old-fashioned not to take in college graduates) and Hakkaku (again, never a beacon of reformism as far as I know). Or at least it is if one associate conservatism with sterner rules. In a different perspective, Hoshoryu's promotion falls well into pre-1990s Ozumo practices. Whether the reason, his critics - or just the media - are now opening the hinkaku can of worms, also as good for all seasons as any mention of Futabayama can be.

2 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

As for none of the Mongolians having proper hinkaku, what the hell was wrong with Kakuryu? Or Terunofuji for that matter? 

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

Kakuryu would like a word.

They're Mongolians, for Amaterasu's sake. Take a hint  The ultimate meaning of those generalized accusations - as I see them - is that Ozumo should get rid of foreigners altogether to get its original purity back. This also would solve the problem of the lack of Japanese Yokozuna, all in one hit.

[Akinomaki 40,406]

7 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

he enjoys sumo and wants to keep enjoying it, usually the hardships of the top rank won't allow that

I guess Jakusotsu will be very critical towards the first generation Z yokozuna

[Koorifuu 989]

1 hour ago, Hankegami said:

They're Mongolians, for Amaterasu's sake. Take a hint  The ultimate meaning of those generalized accusations - as I see them - is that Ozumo should get rid of foreigners altogether to get its original purity back. This also would solve the problem of the lack of Japanese Yokozuna, all in one hit.

If they're so serious about having Japanese-born yokozuna only, they should probably start by making sumo cool for youngsters. Letting it decay to the point it's dropped from middle school national sports championships is not it.

That being said, I'm all for Hoshoryu's promotion and honestly he's almost always seemed to be like a good model for hinkaku and determination. It's not his fault his uncle is a notorious prick, and it's not his fault that he's constantly associated with him. That Gonoyama bout was the exception and, frankly, good ol' Nishikawa didn't help by stubbornly refusing to budge during that tachiai.