Yokozuna Hoshoryu

[Ryoshishokunin 286]

5 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

As for none of the Mongolians having proper hinkaku, what the hell was wrong with Kakuryu? Or Terunofuji for that matter? 

They were Mongolian, clearly.   

(Edit: I see this has been expressed upthread, but it's worth pointing out that bigotry needs no further motivation.)  

Edited Tuesday at 20:56 by Ryoshishokunin

[Benihana 1,929]

Well...they could have had a Japanese Yokozuna in late 2021, but...

[Akinomaki 40,406]

15 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The vote was unanimous, but the comments afterwards contained claims that all Mongolian yokozuna so far didn't have the hinkaku of a yokozuna. o

6 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

 

On 23/03/2015 at 19:11, Akinomaki said:

2 new ones for the YDC as of today, making it 11 members:
One a composer (the 2nd to become a YDC member) and head of the JApan Society for Rights of Authors, Composers and publishers JASRAC, Shun(ichi) Tokura (66): "The DNA of a Japanese becoming yokozuna mustn't vanish".

The 2nd is Masayuki Yamauchi (67), emeritus professor at Tokyo University 

With the session yesterday, the terms in the YDC ended for chief Yamauchi and for Tokura. Yamauchi had his wish fulfilled to have a new yokozuna under his lead, but only at the last opportunity

On 27/03/2023 at 22:24, Akinomaki said:

YDC today in the kokugikan with new top Yamauchi; he is sure that a new yokozuna will appear during his 2 year term - no pressure on Terunofuji to enter next basho, they want him to return top fit

maybe he would have preferred someone else though

On 27/11/2023 at 12:43, Akinomaki said:

the YDC mainly commented on Hoshoryu's behaviour (not what they want to have as hinkaku for a yokozuna hopeful) - chief Yamauchi comments to the press o

the problem bout

o o o

slightly before he had praise though

On 24/07/2023 at 23:41, Akinomaki said:

YDC in Tokyo, chief Yamauchi talked to the media - worried about Terunofuji, delighted about Hoshoryu "opening the way to yokozuna with his own hands" - and they hope for Hakuoho to become a yokozuna in the future 

Comments about hinkaku this time came from Tokura o (probably from others as well), who will vanish now from the YDC and with him hopefully a good deal of this opinion

The shortened way the Sponichi article reported the comment gave me this impression, but Yukan Fuji ZakZak reports the comment in full. o

Tokura actually said "AAALL the Mongolian yokozuna so far DIDn't have the hinkaku to represent a yokozuna, wasn't it. I won't say names though." 

Edited Wednesday at 03:11 by Akinomaki

[Koorifuu 989]

Just now, Akinomaki said:

 

Tokura actually said "All the Mongolian yokozuna so far didn't have the hinkaku to represent a yokozuna, wasn't it. I won't say names though." 

 

He doesn't really have to say names if he already said it's ALL of them, does he?

[Akinomaki 40,406]

1 minute ago, Koorifuu said:

He doesn't really have to say names if he already said it's ALL of them, does he?

No, it means: It's not that all of those yokozuna had the proper hinkaku, it's matter of intonation

[Ripe 71]

10 hours ago, Hankegami said:

In any case, that's too soon to imagine how far Hoshoryu will get. He already has 2 Yusho and at least 5 years of "reign" (possibly more, most Yokozuna hit 7). Those make up for at least 30 basho. With his current pace (1 Cup every 18 months, or every 9 basho), he can be expected to rack up 3-4 more Yusho for a career total of 5-6. Low-key, but not bad altogether. However, I expect him to increase his pace in the future - he changed his gear only four months ago in Kyushu, we cannot understand how much he's changed just yet. More than anything, we have yet to frame the 2025-2030 period of sumo in its general context. Six career Yusho are perfectly excusable when a Dai-Yokozuna is around. But are we going to get one anytime soon? Onosato is expected to take on this role, but those are expectations and not guarantees.

I think things will be somewhat clearer by Kyushu 2025 - we'll see whether Hoshoryu effectively changed his pace and managed to get at least another Yusho, and what Onosato and Kotozakura did on their own.

He will be the only Yokozuna on Banzuke for who knows how long... which means he will be expected to dominate tournaments and win a lot, lot more then just 1 basho every 18 months.

After all, looking at the recent history (last 30 years) and rikishi who became only yokozuna at (or near) height of their power we'll get this:

- Akebono: 11 basho as only Yokozuna, winning 4 of them with remaining 7 going to Takanohana (5), Wakanohana and Musashimaru

- Asashoryu: 21 basho as only Yokozuna, winning 16 of them with remaining 5 going to Hakuho (3), Kaio and Tochiazuma

- Hakuho: 15 basho as only Yokozuna, winning 10 of them with remaining 5 going to Harumafuji (3), Baruto and Kyokutenho

If we end up in another era like there was with Akebono, with another 2-3 strong Yokozuna showing up it will be fine, but if he remains only Yokozuna for next two years there is no way he will not be seen as disappointment and "promoted too soon" if he only wins one tournament during that timeframe... hell, there might be some low-key grumbling about "promoting him too early" if he remains only Yokozuna by the end of the year and he didn't win another tournament or two by that point.

 

Edited Tuesday at 21:23 by Ripe

[Akinomaki 40,406]

So far I haven't seen any mention of a broadcast from the dentatsu-shiki at the heya, like for Onosato recently - maybe we'll have to wait for the NSK digest, till we get more than a short news clip of it

[Ryoshishokunin 286]

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

No, it means: It's not that all of those yokozuna had the proper hinkaku, it's matter of intonation

Your intonation (in writing) indicates the opposite of what you appear to mean, FYI.   Capital ALL and DIDN'T emphasises those terms.

Edited Tuesday at 23:42 by Ryoshishokunin

[Ryoshishokunin 286]

2 hours ago, Ripe said:

If we end up in another era like there was with Akebono, with another 2-3 strong Yokozuna showing up it will be fine, but if he remains only Yokozuna for next two years there is no way he will not be seen as disappointment and "promoted too soon" if he only wins one tournament during that timeframe... hell, there might be some low-key grumbling about "promoting him too early" if he remains only Yokozuna by the end of the year and he didn't win another tournament or two by that point.

The logical implication of this comment are delightful: if no one else is good enough to be a yokozuna, then hoshoryu shouldn't be, and vice versa.  
 

[Leoben 138]

Official announcement from the association

https://twitter.com/sumokyokai/status/1884391854462075341

edit: how do I get this to embed? have tried various versions of the code block and can't get it to work 

 

Edited Wednesday at 00:27 by Leoben

[RabidJohn 1,771]

Hoshoryu won't be sole yokozuna by the end of the year. He may not even be east yokozuna in London.

Nishonoseki will unlock the potential within Onosato, if he hasn't already.
His comment about not expecting too much because he'd let them party over Christmas and New Year sounded like sandbagging to me.

They've made it a bit easier for Onosato as well now.
Shame about Kotozakura - they could have had a Y and 2 YOs in London!

[Dapeng 235]

Of the 19 yushos from 2022, 11 were 12-3 or worse, but of the 17 yushos from 2019 to 2021, only 4 were 12-3 or worse, and from 2010 to 2018, for 9 years, only 4 yushos were 12-3 or worse !

Clearly, Hoshoryu would have had no chance to be promoted to yokozuna before 2019, but quite deserves it these days. 

[Akinomaki 40,406]

3 hours ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

Your intonation (in writing) indicates the opposite of what you appear to mean, FYI.   Capital ALL and DIDN'T emphasises those terms.

That is the problem of just writing, this is not emphasize in meaning, but a try to show the emphasis in speaking it. I don't know the proper phonological way to write this, unfortunately.

[Kaninoyama 1,777]

It appears that the nuance we are looking for is "Not all of the Mongolian Yokozuna up to now had the proper hinkaku."

Meaning some did and some didn't (but not saying who--though we all know who). 

[Godango 983]

Gotta love a sport that can in the 21st century still be all "yeah look, we're just not sold on his nationality"

[TheGunbaiHolder 27]

1 hour ago, Godango said:

Gotta love a sport that can in the 21st century still be all "yeah look, we're just not sold on his nationality"

I guess when you mix it with religion/culture representation it kinda makes sense. Not saying that foreigners cannot have the hinkaku, but how well can you represent a culture that is not yours? They moved when they were very young, which helps absorbing the culture, but, as a foreigner myself in my current country, I do understand their point. Imagine a Japanese that moved to London when he was 16: would you say he's fit to represent that culture when he's 26? Personally, I don't know; it's not an easy question.

[Akinomaki 40,406]

3 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

It appears that the nuance we are looking for is "Not all of the Mongolian Yokozuna up to now had the proper hinkaku."

Meaning some did and some didn't (but not saying who--though we all know who). 

That the nuance he wanted to convey, but it deprives us of the ambiguity in his words that makes it look he meant all of them - if you skip the explaining part "I won't say who", like Sponichi did

Edited Wednesday at 07:28 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 40,406]

9 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

So far I haven't seen any mention of a broadcast from the dentatsu-shiki at the heya, like for Onosato recently - maybe we'll have to wait for the NSK digest, till we get more than a short news clip of it

Apparently the links were published on short notice, NHK, Asahi TV and NiTele had broadcasts, the NiTele live again a 6h repeat loop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDNB6ue8qGQ

NHK in low res as usual, short clip with the 4 kanji acceptance phrase kihaku issen (no seishin) 気魄一閃 and 36min full video of the press conference https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20250129/k10014706251000.html

he aims for double digits in the yusho count

[Ryoshishokunin 286]

I am entirely willing to believe that it's deliberately ambiguous to provide cover for racism, unfortunately. 

(We also see some of this nonsense around coaching appointments for national football teams—an English head coach being non-english by birth is always cause for attacks from some segments of the media.)

[John Gunning 3,599]

Sumo’s newest yokozuna is all smiles — but major challenges await

[Akinomaki 40,406]

2 hours ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

I am entirely willing to believe that it's deliberately ambiguous to provide cover for racism, unfortunately. 

(We also see some of this nonsense around coaching appointments for national football teams—an English head coach being non-english by birth is always cause for attacks from some segments of the media.)

There was most likely no ambiguity in his spoken comment, and we can't be sure that the Sponichi writer deliberately created the ambiguity by dropping the part that makes it clear what Tokura actually said. Instead the writer brought other parts of the comment, that ZakZak doesn’t show, "Their fighting spirit is OK though. If he becomes aware that it's the kokugi, it's alright. Get instructions from Tatsunami, will you!"

Of course Tokura is clearly a racist, his past comments confirm that, but this here was maybe unintended.

Edit: one can't call that an open ambiguity, rather a way to lead people to a certain understanding at first glance, which then is relativized - that is most likely intended and also indicates, that both writer and speaker actually think that

Edited Wednesday at 11:07 by Akinomaki

[RabidJohn 1,771]

3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Of course Tokura is clearly a racist, his past comments confirm that ...

I can't read Japanese, so I don't know whether he is or not, but being proud of and wanting to preserve your nation's heritage from foreign influence is simply nationalist. It'd be called patriotic in the USA.

For sure, it's a view that becoming somewhat distasteful and increasingly hard to maintain in a globalised world, but racism is a long way across the spectrum from this, IMHO.

Edited Wednesday at 14:14 by RabidJohn

[Ryoshishokunin 286]

12 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Gaijin means outsider and is no more perjorative than me describing everyone not from the UK as foreigners.

Gaijin is perjorative.  It's been reclaimed in the expat community in japan (I'd describe a place as a "gaijin bar", for instance), but the polite word is 'gaikokujin'.  

It'd be like you describing someone born and raised in the UK, with a British passport, as a foreigner.  

[Koorifuu 989]

8 hours ago, Godango said:

Gotta love a sport that can in the 21st century still be all "yeah look, we're just not sold on his nationality"

The mistake here is looking at it as a sport!

[RabidJohn 1,771]

1 hour ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

Gaijin is perjorative.  It's been reclaimed in the expat community in japan (I'd describe a place as a "gaijin bar", for instance), but the polite word is 'gaikokujin'.  

It'd be like you describing someone born and raised in the UK, with a British passport, as a foreigner.  

Oh, it's one of those words, is it? Thank you for the correction.
I take it we customarily use the reclaimed version so often on this forum then.

I've removed the offending line from my post, but it remains in your quote as a reminder.