Haru 2025 discussion (results)

[RabidJohn 1,853]

3 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

They absolutely had the option to not promote Hoshoryu after he won in January, and a lot of the judges were going in that exact direction. The fact certain folks threw their weight behind it and made it happen, if anything, shows how real that option was, because they had to work to get what they wanted (a new yokozuna). 

If a 13-2J/D can be part of a rope run, not announcing it is just optics. Anyone paying attention knows full well that a 13+ yusho would essentially guarantee promotion, just like it would have for Hoshoryu.

Hard work? My mistake. I believed that the foolish decision to announce Hoshoryu as tsunatori on the strength of a sole jun-yusho was the only thing that afforded Takadagawa-san the opportunity to unilaterally announce his promotion, railroading the NSK into closing ranks so as to not look even more foolish, though not without a little leakage of discontent to the press.

Please don't expect me to get any less cynical, though.

And call me idealistic, but a 13-2Y is worth way more than a 13-2D, which is itself worth more than a 13-2J. 
Same numbers, but ask Takayasu whether that Y matters.

[Suwihuto 133]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

I don't think this is correct; there's a difference between "can be part of a run" and "is definitely part of a run." Announcing it essentially makes it the latter, while without an announcement, there is a lot of discretion for the specific set of circumstances. As I wrote above, all 13-2J are not equal.

I missed the last three basho, and looking at his record, I was amazed that he'd been given the rope. I only have to look back (yes, different era I know) to the record of someone like Konishiki, Baruto, or even Kirishima to see arguably better results (I'm not picking foreigners on purpose, they're just easier to find).

Is it so long since Futahaguro that the committee need another lesson?

[Godango 1,014]

14 hours ago, junsan said:

I think Onosato (and Takerufuji eventually) will make really good yokozuna. They have something that Hoshoryu lacks: consistency.

He averaged 10+ wins over 9 ozeki basho, with two kyujos. No MK, but a third of those basho had single-digit wins. Still, 2 JY, 1 Y—both kyujos while leading or in the yusho race. That’s consistency. He’s just not an overwhelming force (yet—he’s 25), and people are overreacting.

Onosato looks like he could be that dominant force (despite his own mini-slump). Takerufuji has a ton of potential too, and upper sanyaku seems inevitable for him—but let’s not overrate "consistency" outside the joi.

Look, I thought the promotion was as lenient as can be reasonably accepted, but Hoshoryu isn’t the problem. I can forgive him his first MK since 2021 after a heck of a disrupted training schedule with all his new Yokozuna duties and reports of injury.

[Joaoiyama 313]

Kusano looking like the real deal. 

[Jakusotsu 6,045]

9 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Another win tomorrow for Kusano to be the sole all time leader in best start results as new juryo: with 11-0 today he pulled even with later yokozuna Musashiyama, who had the best result so far - but that was an 11-0 zensho yusho in 1929, in the 15 bout era Kusano is the best now.

He almost blew it against Roga, but the dream is still alive.

[Akinomaki 40,753]

Kusano juryo yusho on day 12 - 3rd to manage that in the present 15 days era, after Uchida->Yutakayama ->Tokitsukaze-rijicho and Kotonofuji, of course the first as new juryo. That may lead to slacking down though and he likely won't get 15-0 (Yutakayama in only his 2nd juryo basho went to 15-0 though)

Edited March 20 by Akinomaki

[Ryoshishokunin 323]

6-5-5-4-4 Wins in his Ms basho makes the 12-0 start in Juryo feel even more unexpected to me.  Has anyone been following Kusano closely enough to explain how 4-3 in high Ms turns into this?

[Koorifuu 1,019]

Happy to see Hitoshi righting the wrong that was his juryo debut, something Keitenkai never had the opportunity to do, and Asashiyu probably never will.

[Katooshu 3,325]

Kusano was a top amateur competitor since primary school - above average even for an MsTD. Middle school yokozuna, one win away from high school yokozuna, and college yokozuna. He was a regular on a powerhouse Nihon University team already in his first year. And he has the size and power to compete with the ozumo big boys. Sometimes a rikishi needs the full 15 to really show their stuff, and you can see this with other high performing collegiate rikishi like Onosato (4-3 to 12-3) Shodai (4-3 to 11-4 then 13-2) and Endo (5-2 to 14-1).

But even with that considered, I definitely wasn't expecting a 12-0 based on his amateur or prior pro showings.

Is it the Isegahama influence and an accumulation of experience training there? Takerufuji went from not winning an individual title in high school or college to being a monster in ozumo.....I am still awed by the transformation. Atamifuji wasn't a particularly impressive competitor in high school but breezed to juryo as a teenager. Terunofuji thought about quitting sumo prior to transferring from Magaki, but then he joined Isegahama and we know how high he climbed. They do something very effective and on multiple occasions have taken rikishi to levels that I don't think most would predict prior to them joining the heya. 

I am curious how Kusano will be impacted if Miyagino breaks off this summer - although he was recruited by Hakuho, all his career has been under the Isegahama banner and he's doing so well now.

Edited March 20 by Katooshu

[MrGrumpyGills 134]

Onosato has had cupping marks on his shoulders/back for two or three days now, I hope this doesn't hint at an injury :/

[Katooshu 3,325]

Interesting yusho race

I wonder what Kisenosato is thinking right now: his long-time friend vs his young star (with the 9-3 piranhas waiting to pounce)

As for the cupping - I recall Onosato having those since the start of the basho but could be mistaken. 

He seems more controlled with his charges this basho, like he realizes he can push opponents out without applying so much force. That said, I am getting the feeling that he may repeat day 10 and pull himself out one more time before the tournament ends...

Edited March 20 by Katooshu

[Koorifuu 1,019]

2 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Is it the Isegahama influence and an accumulation of experience training there? Takerufuji went from not winning an individual title in high school or college to being a monster in ozumo.....I am still awed by the transformation. Atamifuji wasn't a particularly impressive competitor in high school but breezed to juryo as a teenager. Terunofuji thought about quitting sumo prior to transferring from Magaki, but then he joined Isegahama and we know how high he climbed. They do something very effective and on multiple occasions have taken rikishi to levels that I don't think most would predict prior to them joining the heya. 

Tenshoho being the most glaring example of someone going the other way. Juryo to barely looking like he belongs in makushita. Unless there's a niggling, invisible injury.

[Akinomaki 40,753]

The last necessary win for Aonishiki's kantosho gets difficult now, being one behind the leaders on day 13. A loss to sekiwake Daieisho tomorrow should ease his schedule though. I hope of course that he keeps my hope for a junyusho alive and also has to face an ozeki.

[rhyen 1,846]

2 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Kusano was a top amateur competitor since primary school - above average even for an MsTD. Middle school yokozuna, one win away from high school yokozuna, and college yokozuna. He was a regular on a powerhouse Nihon University team already in his first year. And he has the size and power to compete with the ozumo big boys. Sometimes a rikishi needs the full 15 to really show their stuff, and you can see this with other high performing collegiate rikishi like Onosato (4-3 to 12-3) Shodai (4-3 to 11-4 then 13-2) and Endo (5-2 to 14-1).

But even with that considered, I definitely wasn't expecting a 12-0 based on his amateur or prior pro showings.

Is it the Isegahama influence and an accumulation of experience training there? Takerufuji went from not winning an individual title in high school or college to being a monster in ozumo.....I am still awed by the transformation. Atamifuji wasn't a particularly impressive competitor in high school but breezed to juryo as a teenager. Terunofuji thought about quitting sumo prior to transferring from Magaki, but then he joined Isegahama and we know how high he climbed. They do something very effective and on multiple occasions have taken rikishi to levels that I don't think most would predict prior to them joining the heya. 

I am curious how Kusano will be impacted if Miyagino breaks off this summer - although he was recruited by Hakuho, all his career has been under the Isegahama banner and he's doing so well now.

Isegahama heya is always about training, and they don’t do matchups based on ranks. Higher performers are always made to fight their banzuke seniors (I recall Takerufuji and Ochil already fighting those on the Makushita and Juryo banzuke) in training. The stronger you are, the stronger your opponents, so even sekitoris are going to face upcoming, hungry replacements to sharpen their own mental fortitude. 
 

I supposed that every sekitori and coach having a definitive fighting style also helps with variety in training partners. Coaching is also coupled with mentoring/teaching on the side. Atamifuji hews closely to power sumo that Terunofuji, Takarafuji, Kotoshogiku have (wonder why he wants to do tawara dancing is anyone’s guess, Isegahama & co have been trying to weed out this bad habit). Takerufuji still resembles Harumafuji’s speed sumo, Midorifuji and Endo share tips and pointers with each other but train against their bigger heya mates since there are few such wrestlers until Asashoryu and Tokihayate establish themselves in Makuuchi. Having Miyagino and Magaki oyakata help out with personal tips (Miyagino is often in mawashi during these training sessions). 
 

Tenshoho problem as far as the keiko exposes is that he is totally weak against yotsu sumo. They have been throwing him against yotsu sumo (and the strongest one in the heya, Atamifuji) for him to work out what he needs to do. Either he figures that out or he becomes a Terao windmill or stamina beast. Or maybe, being Atamifuji’s regular oshi sumo partner has affected his physical conditioning?
 

The biggest danger back then was being Terunofuji’s sparring partner prior to any basho, Takarafuji and Nishikifuji did that on a regular basis and it probably affected their physical conditioning. Terunofuji know that he is a beast and he goes all out but limits the number of bouts to not impact his teammates too much. 

[Gospodin 219]

3 hours ago, MrGrumpyGills said:

Onosato has had cupping marks on his shoulders/back for two or three days now, I hope this doesn't hint at an injury :/

It hints at superstition . The evidence that cupping has any curative effect on anything is zero.

[Koorifuu 1,019]

Random thought.

I guess Akua and Kotokuzan took over Chiyonoumi's and Chiyoarashi's former roles at the Sekitori Border Patrol department.

[MrGrumpyGills 134]

8 minutes ago, Gospodin said:

It hints at superstition . The evidence that cupping has any curative effect on anything is zero.

I know that doesn't really do anything but would he have it done if there wasn't a problem with his back?

[ViscountessNivlac 30]

58 minutes ago, Gospodin said:

It hints at superstition

Superstition, in my sumo? Never.

[Sumo Spiffy 579]

10 hours ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

6-5-5-4-4 Wins in his Ms basho makes the 12-0 start in Juryo feel even more unexpected to me.  Has anyone been following Kusano closely enough to explain how 4-3 in high Ms turns into this?

I had this conversation when Takerufuji and Onosato were ascending. Takeru never took a title above division five before he reached juryo, and Onosato didn't win either of his makushita tournaments, even though both were obviously dominant athletes in the lower divisions. It was pointed out to me how, the higher you go, the more common it is for guys to come right at you even if it's not the optimal option, because that's sumo. By comparison, in the lower divisions, they're more likely to do what they need to do to win, ie. "negative sumo". Once guys with those kinds of insanely powerful builds hit sekitori level, it can actually get easier for a while—the athleticism of the opposition doesn't improve much, but their strategies can get noticeably worse (with respect to dealing with this guy).

That being said, I went back and watched Kusano's losses in November and January, and that explanation doesn't hold up here. I think it was simply a matter of opposition—his losses were to Wakanosho, Otsuji (twice), Hitoshi, Takakento, and Daiamami. Takakento's the only one who hasn't been in juryo very recently, and he mega-specializes in oshi, which Kusano didn't seem to know how to deal with if he got popped hard enough. Once he figured that out, running roughshod over juryo was probably going to happen.

Not that I predicted it either. But it makes sense in retrospect.

[Octofuji 368]

Endo is taking so long to get up after falling. Similar to Ikioi when he had cellulitis but he was visibly in a lot of pain. Endo just looks shell-shocked, it's really strange.

Edited March 20 by Octofuji
Spelling

[Koorifuu 1,019]

24 minutes ago, Octofuji said:

Endo is taking so long to get up after falling. Similar to Ikioi when he had cellulitis but he was visibly in a lot of pain. Endo just looks shell-shocked, it's really strange.

I thought he had the wind knocked out of him both yesterday and today, except this time he powered though it.

[Octofuji 368]

1 minute ago, Koorifuu said:

I thought he had the wind knocked out of him both yesterday and today, except this time he powered though it.

I thought it was pretty much every time he fell over this basho (win or lose)? Probably my memory though...

[Gospodin 219]

1 hour ago, Octofuji said:

Endo is taking so long to get up after falling. Similar to Ikioi when he had cellulitis but he was visibly in a lot of pain. Endo just looks shell-shocked, it's really strange.

Endo is obviously suffering from a serious concussion. His opponents are exploiting it already. Asakoryu hit him squarely in the side of his jaw, the favorite spot to KO somebody, and he is already too slow to avoid it. Endo´s entire behavior is exactly that from somebody being punch-drunk. If this were boxing or the NFL, he would not be allowed to enter the ring/field. He should be in a dark room in the hospital for two weeks, and not on the dohyo. My guess is he goes kyujo immediately after his 8th win.

[Octofuji 368]

12 minutes ago, Gospodin said:

Endo is obviously suffering from a serious concussion. His opponents are exploiting it already. Asakoryu hit him squarely in the side of his jaw, the favorite spot to KO somebody, and he is already too slow to avoid it. Endo´s entire behavior is exactly that from somebody being punch-drunk. If this were boxing or the NFL, he would not be allowed to enter the ring/field. He should be in a dark room in the hospital for two weeks, and not on the dohyo. My guess is he goes kyujo immediately after his 8th win.

Looking back at his bouts, he's looked out of control when falling/trying to get up since Day 2. (Day 1 against Nishikigi he won without having to exert himself). So possibly concussed even before entering.

 

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,276]

13 hours ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

6-5-5-4-4 Wins in his Ms basho makes the 12-0 start in Juryo feel even more unexpected to me.  Has anyone been following Kusano closely enough to explain how 4-3 in high Ms turns into this?

Hakuho had a similar journey and honestly was quite lucky to get that good of results, his sumo was super frantic and pulling, often retreating around the edge of the ring.