Nishonoseki Beya Drinking Party Scandal

[Gurowake 4,084]

4 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

That a bunch of young men got drunk and did some dumb shit is not a scandal in my book: it's normal behaviour.

Just because something is "normal" doesn't mean it should be tolerated.  Slavery was "normal" throughout most of human history.  Now it's not.

[Muhomatsu 245]

4 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

 

That a bunch of young men got drunk and did some dumb shit is not a scandal in my book: it's normal behaviour.

Would you say the same thing if Takaseido were replaced with a drunk woman?  This is sexual violence and I hope you do not consider sexual violence to be "normal behaviour". 

[Churaumi 743]

Yeah, there's a big difference between "got wasted and woke up and don't know why my head was shaven" (never did find out which one of us did that) and what this is.

This is the kind of stuff that usually escalates if left unchecked, who knows what hasn't been reported on. Hopefully it is just a case of a bunch of drunk dudes blowing off steam, but even if it was all consenting and in good fun it's just too easy to cross that line. Hopefully whatever punishment gets meted out is targeted and effective to keep the guys safe.

[RabidJohn 1,791]

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Just because something is "normal" doesn't mean it should be tolerated.  Slavery was "normal" throughout most of human history.  Now it's not.

Slavery isn't a drunken prank. Dumb stuff being done by young men while drunk will remain very normal as long as there are young men and alcohol.

Dumb stuff covers a broad spectrum from the tragic Darwin Award winners to, say, almost fully unscrewing someone's bed legs.

I'm not denying the huge range of inappropriate behaviour in that spectrum, but IMHO the dumbest thing these boys did was allow themselves to be videoed doing it.

[Godango 996]

44 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Slavery isn't a drunken prank. Dumb stuff being done by young men while drunk will remain very normal as long as there are young men and alcohol.

Dumb stuff covers a broad spectrum from the tragic Darwin Award winners to, say, almost fully unscrewing someone's bed legs.

I'm not denying the huge range of inappropriate behaviour in that spectrum, but IMHO the dumbest thing these boys did was allow themselves to be videoed doing it.

I take the point that young men doing dumb things while drunk is unsurprising. But I take issue with the idea that "this will remain very normal as long as there are young men and alcohol." That’s just another way of saying "boys will be boys"—and, respectfully, to hell with that.

The only way this kind of behaviour remains normal is if people excuse it as such instead of calling it out for what it is: at best, ridiculously stupid and inappropriate; at worst, morally bankrupt and outright evil.

A young person drinking and being too loud? Sure. Getting a bit emotional? Fine. Even roughhousing a little while mucking about? Maybe. But there’s a line—and I can say without hesitation that the sake bottle crossed it.

Edited Friday at 20:41 by Godango

[RabidJohn 1,791]

My point is more along the lines of: drinking alcohol is a big part of ozumo culture and Japanese culture in general, therefore dumb shit should be expected from time to time and not automatically declared 'scandalous'.

I'll admit that this incident bothers me less than what Hokuseiho got up to at Miyagino, but at no point have I suggested perpetrators of crimes should be excused because they were intoxicated.

[Reonito 1,469]

Seems like a key issue here is supervision. If this was at the heya, where was Nishonoseki? That was the main criticism of Miyagino, right? That he didn't know how to run a stable and wasn't there enough to know what was happening?

[Yamanashi 3,854]

37 minutes ago, Reonito said:

Seems like a key issue here is supervision. If this was at the heya, where was Nishonoseki? That was the main criticism of Miyagino, right? That he didn't know how to run a stable and wasn't there enough to know what was happening?

Well, the key difference between Nishonoseki and Miyagino, as we all know, is hinkaku.

[junsan 192]

All the Hinkaku in the world is worthless if such vile things are happening under your watch.

As someone pointed out, Nishonoseki did a dissertation on how to run the ideal heya. And now this comes out?

This should be all over the newspapers with NSK coming down on Nishonoseki as they did with Miyagino.

[Bunbukuchagama 732]

21 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Slavery isn't a drunken prank. Dumb stuff being done by young men while drunk will remain very normal as long as there are young men and alcohol.

Dumb stuff covers a broad spectrum from the tragic Darwin Award winners to, say, almost fully unscrewing someone's bed legs.

I'm not denying the huge range of inappropriate behaviour in that spectrum, but IMHO the dumbest thing these boys did was allow themselves to be videoed doing it.

A lot of dumb stuff is also dangerous, shameful, and highly illegal.

Of course, it might turn out that the rikishi in question were all active members of the official Nishonoseki BDSM club who were having their regular meeting, and everything we saw belongs to the realm of their usual consensual behavior. But without such context, it looks very bad for the participants, their shisho, and NSK as a whole.

Edited Saturday at 17:48 by Bunbukuchagama

[Bunbukuchagama 732]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

Seems like a key issue here is supervision. If this was at the heya, where was Nishonoseki? That was the main criticism of Miyagino, right? That he didn't know how to run a stable and wasn't there enough to know what was happening?

This was in heya lodgings in Kyushu,  if I am not mistaken. I don't know if it qualifies as heya territory in a legal sense.

Criticism of Miyagino also comes from his knowing about Hokuseiho's abuse and doing nothing to stop or report it for many months.

[Bunbukuchagama 732]

5 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

My point is more along the lines of: drinking alcohol is a big part of ozumo culture and Japanese culture in general, therefore dumb shit should be expected from time to time and not automatically declared 'scandalous'.

Most of us were young and drunk once upon a time, but I bet very few people remember anal rape being on the menu.

(Queue "you just don't remember" jokes)

[Yamanashi 3,854]

1 hour ago, junsan said:

All the Hinkaku in the world is worthless if such vile things are happening under your watch.

As someone pointed out, Nishonoseki did a dissertation on how to run the ideal heya. And now this comes out?

This should be all over the newspapers with NSK coming down on Nishonoseki as they did with Miyagino.

Note: I forgot to say Sarcasm Alert!

[Sumo Spiffy 568]

3 hours ago, Reonito said:

Seems like a key issue here is supervision. If this was at the heya, where was Nishonoseki? That was the main criticism of Miyagino, right? That he didn't know how to run a stable and wasn't there enough to know what was happening?

And this aligns with how the reporting seems to really target Nishonoseki more than the wrestlers. The article (that I saw, anyway) and its description of bottle-in-ass sounded like everyone was... uh... all-in... but even then, the absolute bare minimum question is WTF is going on at that stable?

Number one, the described behavior, even if everyone involved was fully consenting at all times (and we already know that wasn't the case with at least some underage drinking), is so far out of pocket that consent could not possibly be sufficient justification for treating it all as acceptable. And two, even if someone wanted to brush it aside on the basis of (almost) everyone fully partaking, it can't be accepted as normal because it's precisely the kind of behavior that would lead these guys to push someone else into it on the rationale that "so-and-so did it, don't be a sissy".

[Seiyashi 4,097]

Not a peep out of the NSK, Nishonoseki or the parties involved? Is this being just dismissed as muckraking in Japan or are there indications that investigations are being conducted? 

[Akinomaki 40,593]

Dailyshincho posted more, as usual in 2 parts, first details http://www.dailyshincho.jp/article/2025/02231058/?all=1

then interviews, Nakamura, Tomokaze (paragraph title, but actually not interviewed), Nishonoseki by phone, NSK http://www.dailyshincho.jp/article/2025/02231059/?all=1

- I'll rather watch the charity ozumo in an hour than read this further, the NSK has already had a hearing and passed a (lenient) sentence, they won't bother to do it all over again

Edit: there is nothing new in this case, only a video that got into the hands of the tabloid - the NSK had questioned all involved in detail, usually that's it, if nobody lied - further details don't matter

Edited Sunday at 06:40 by Akinomaki

[Seiyashi 4,097]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

the NSK had questioned all involved in detail, usually that's it, if nobody lied

If that's really it, so basically the NSK thinks having sake bottles shoved up a rear end is kosher. 

All right then. 

Edited Sunday at 07:45 by Seiyashi

[Kintamayama 45,158]

The only sport in the Universe where many hormonal young men live together in the same sometimes cramped space on a daily basis for their whole career (unless they become sekitori, yes, yes..) is sumo. Essentially, this is "Big Brother." When you have 20 guys living together with downtime every evening after six, mischief usually surfaces. I'm totally convinced that we are party to maybe 5% of what really goes on at the "Extra-big Brother " house. Not condoming   condoning anything in any way, but the basic conditions guarantee that these occurrences  can thrive. Hazing, bullying , and the ultimate danger- pranks.

For those of you in Japan- is this an issue at all in the media? I would think that by now a story with this much "meat" would have been spread all over the place.

[Akinomaki 40,593]

This is just the story for a tabloid, since one can't eleminate them, ignoring them is the best.

[Sumo Spiffy 568]

10 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

This is just the story for a tabloid, since one can't eleminate them, ignoring them is the best.

Not if tabloids are the only ones willing to bring these stories to light. I don't enjoy leaning on tabloid journalism, but if every "legit" outlet acts like these stories don't exist, we can't disregard what does come out if we make any pretense towards caring about what happens to these guys.

[Eskbibs 77]

13 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

For those of you in Japan- is this an issue at all in the media? I would think that by now a story with this much "meat" would have been spread all over the place.

I'm not a good source because I don't (can't comfortably) read the news online or in-person, but my few coworkers and acquaintances who are sumo fans - older folks for the most part - don't seem to care all that much about this (yet). I brought it up vaguely trying to see if they'd heard about it, but they saw the Yahoo headline and didn't really seem interested in reading further. A while ago, when the Tobizaru thing allegedly happened, that also slipped under their radar. When the Hokuseiho incident came to light, though, I did hear about that, for what it's worth. I'm not trying to say what it sounds like I'm trying to say here, just that this is what I've seen in my admittedly limited circles.

Some of the more senior forumites most likely have different experiences, however. This is just my own, so do take it with a grain of salt.

My takeaway has been that as expected, you can't beat Sumoforum for sumo news and that I am probably more knowledgeable - or obsessed - than the average Japanese citizen when it comes to sumo.

[Kaninoyama 1,797]

Likewise it doesn't appear to be making the news at all beyond the tabloid article around my parts and the people I know who are diehard sumo fans. The fact that this all happened a couple years ago has probably dampened any potential interest as well. 

[Yarimotsu 580]

9 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

but if every "legit" outlet acts like these stories don't exist, we can't disregard what does come out if we make any pretense towards caring

By extension, it also means we can't place much if any weight on the supposed legitimacy of more established or "reputable" news sources, which is a position I have adopted elsewhere for personal reasons. We have to acknowledge they are very much invested in the systems and cultures they are meant to be reporting on, and if this is something we consider necessary to investigate and they don't investigate then of course we have to assume they fail to investigate, verify or print many things which we would reasonably be interested in knowing / things that could help people in difficult situations.

[RabidJohn 1,791]

10 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

The fact that this all happened a couple years ago has probably dampened any potential interest as well. 

No victim making any formal complaint, either.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,274]

I don’t intend to kink shame, but my perception of those who eagerly rushed to endorse these kinds of activities may have changed.