An idea for a new sumo game

[sekihiryu 51]

I play fantasy football (American football (In a state of confusion...) ) and I what I like about it is the draft, only one person can have a certain player and the league is only 12 players.

I was pondering a sumo game with similar attributes, small leagues of 8 -10 players (sumo forum members only perhaps), multiple leagues if many people want to play, (like a banzuke - but small divisions), a draft sysem each basho (automated and based on your rankings of sekitori rikishi)

the rest of the game would be played like Bench Sumo.

It seems a tad stale when every basho every player has Asashouryu, most have Kaio and then flavour of the month guys like Hakuho are also popular.

So there are 66 sekitori

IF you have a 10 player league, 7 rikishi per player

10 times 7 rikishi = 70 thas close to the full 66 in the sekitori ranks

or

8 players times 8 rikishi = 66 - perfect!

you would face your opponents multiple times a basho, which could be fun.

if you had played this basho you might have gotten Asashoryu and Hakuho in your team but you might also have gotten shoes on, Toki, Asanowaka and Haminishiki etc which would have really removed the question of the player who got Asa will win for sure.

And if you really dislike a rikishi you could rank them dead last to hopefully avoid them.

just thoughts.

Edited December 1, 2004 by sekihiryu

[Zeokage 0]

8 x 8 = 64 (In a state of confusion...)

This would be a pre-basho game, right? Or would there be bench positions like on Bench Sumo/Y! Fantasy Football? How about trades or picking up unselected rikishi?

This idea sounds pretty good... Draft Sumo.

First 12 days are between the whole division, then there's a 3 day playoff to make it more like American football. At the same time there's also that top 4 mini-tournament at the actual tournament so it would sort of fit in.

[Asashosakari 19,320]

So there are 66 sekitori

IF you have a 10 player league, 7 rikishi per player

10 times 7 rikishi = 70 thas close to the full 66 in the sekitori ranks

Lucky you, there are 70 sekitori these days... (In a state of confusion...)

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

Nice idea, sekihiryu. Needs a bit of refining thoughts but sure has potential.

If only Budinishiki's idea would happen one day... (Blinking...)

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

Sounds like a very nice gaming idea. (Blinking...) I actually like that a lot more than Budinishiki's idea.

I also play Fantasy leagues, but with NBA, which is somewhat similar to Fantasy Football. The problem I'm seeing with Fantasy Sumo is that only one player can have Asashoryu, which favors him wildly, especially compared to #8 to #10 in draft order. Difficult to offset that advantage with clever draft order schemes.

So I'd rather think of fewer than 10 players. 8 x 8 seems possible to me, as there will be some basho with pre-announced kyujo rikishi (like Tochiazuma next basho). Playing could be done in head-to-head format (for example two round-robin tournaments for the first 14 days + one final playoff for places 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8) with Bench Sumo type playing.

You could even come up with a promotion/demotion scheme to set up a ranking of Leagues, like first two get promoted, last two get demoted. Maybe the first year should be played with random leagues to establish the League hierarchy based on year-end scores. Problem here are kyujo players of course, probably not easy to solve (one idea would be to let them play anyway if they want or not, based on automated draft order like the banzuke order, also getting last draft position).

[Jejima 1,384]

Great idea

Here you go.....

16 players in a division. Each player gets 4 rikishi. To pick their rikishi all players rank all 70 rikishi in order of preference.

Then 1st player gets to pick 1st, 32nd, 33rd and 64th. They get the rikishi which is highest on their preference list that has not been picked already. 2nd player gets to pick 2nd, 31st, 34th and 63rd etc, with 16th player getting 16th, 17th, 48th and 49th.

Then each player will face each other player once throughout the basho (15 bouts over 15 days). The timetable having been planned and published in advance.

They rank their 4 players daily in order (3 pts, 2 pts 1 pt and 0 pts) like Bench Sumo. Either you have tie-breaks or allow draws for equal points

If any rikishi goes kyujo, the player who suffers gets their next pick (from their original list) from the remaining 6 rikishi immediately (ie they won't suffer from a fusensho loss) left over from the start. If there are more than 6 kyujo rikishi - tough (Blinking...)

At the end of the basho, the player with the most picks wins :) Tie-break based on total number of points / then wins / then lowest ranked highest rikishi in a team. (ie a team headed by Wakanosato would beat a team headed by asashoryu on this tie-break).

The top four move up a division, the bottom four move down a division.

For the next basho the person who came 12th (from that division) gets first pick, then 11th gets 2nd all the way to 5th in the division (ie the division's non-movers), then the 16th from the division above (moving down), then 15th down to 13th. Then 4th (moving up), 3rd, 2nd and finally 1st (moving up a division). Of course in the top division, it is 12th down to 1st of non-movers, then 13th down to 16th of movers.

The bottom division - and any division with kyujo players - would be filled up with drones using randam picks - AFTER the human players have made all their picks.

Players are allowed one kosho basho and stay in the same division(and then get to pick last in the next basho after the other players in the order described above). Otherwise they are automatically come last in their division, and so will get demoted. For the bottom division (with a lot of drones), only human players are ranked for the purpose of moving up.

Great idea. I hope this helps :)

Jejima

[jomojo 0]

the rest of the game would be played like Bench Sumo.

It seems a tad stale when every basho every player has Asashouryu, most have Kaio and then flavour of the month guys like Hakuho are also popular.

@ Jejima

Should the issue of "only one Yokuzuma" be revisited in your next Benchsumo Administration email?

jomojo

[aderechelsea 125]

i am sold to Jejima's idea ......

i still haven't figured out the ranking of the divisions for the first basho.

who gets to be in the forst div. and who gets to be in the last ?

[Jejima 1,384]

@ aderechelsea - there needs to be some way to start the game off. A purely random way one would be one. First come first served would be another. But thinking about it, I would suggest that the first ranking would be done on the basis of the Super Banzuke. I know we don't all play the games, but this does give a rough idea of player's skill and commitment to sumo games....

The highest 16 playing based on the Super Banzuke would start off in the top division. The lowest ranking of them would get the first pick, with the highest ranking getting the 16th pick (I think this is the way the draft works for some North American sports?!?). The second division would be made up of the next sixteen players taking part. I doubt there would be need for a third division to start off with :)

Of course after the first basho, it would be played based on the previous basho only. New players would be ranked at the very bottom based on how early they register, and would only get their picks after the players who'd played before have had theirs.

I would suggest that this game would be played purely on this forum (ie no other posts etc elsewhere).

Can anyone make the entry page?

Jejima

@ Jomojo (Blinking...) We've managed for the best part of three years with just one Yokozuna (think of the times when there were two Yokozunas and one was kyujo) in Bench Sumo.... But as you've raised the topic here, I will mention it in the next admin post ;-)

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

I would suggest that this game would be played purely on this forum (ie no other posts etc elsewhere).

Can anyone make the entry page?

Jejima

@ Jomojo (Blinking...) We've managed for the best part of three years with just one Yokozuna (think of the times when there were two Yokozunas and one was kyujo) in Bench Sumo.... But as you've raised the topic here, I will mention it in the next admin post ;-)

Why only on this forum? Seems awfully limited to me...

Regarding the Yokozuna in BS: You are right of course, but now we additionally have all the same Ozeki...

[Jejima 1,384]

@ Doitsuyama

I suggested limiting it to the forum to make it our 'special game', and so easier to manage. A lot of games have players who turn up once, and are then never heard of again. This doesn't matter so much with most games (e.g. Bench Sumo), but with a game like the one I suggested it would matter. Ideally you would want every basho to be played with active players, or else it would make the game less fun if you had drones filling in all the time.... Forum members tend to be more dedicated, and they can be tracked down easily if need be ;-) Further, whilst the game is being tested, it would be better to keep it on a smaller scale.

There are a lot of other games out there to be played by all :-S ....and to be honest I not really too bothered either way.

....as to (Blinking...) Bench Sumo, I see your point, but this is surely VERY short term. After next basho Kaio will either be promoted to Yokozuna or not. If he isn't I can't seem him remaining that much more popular a pick than Chiyotaikai, and there is a good chance that Wakanosato might be pushed up to Ozeki. With all the young guns coming up, and about to start hitting sanyaku, I predict a very interesting time for Bench Sumo in 2005 under the current rules.... (Admin: Is there any way that this off-topic Bench Sumo bit be taken away to another thread?!)

Jejima

Edited December 2, 2004 by Jejima

[Manekineko 200]

Re: Moving the OT bit

I'm afraid not, because it isn't in separate posts... When one half of one post deals with new game, and another with bench-sumo, there's not much I can do - except edit the thread name. (Blinking...)

But you can always start a BS-related thread and announce here that all discussion related to BS should move there...

[aderechelsea 125]

secluding the it only in Sumo Forum will end up in everyone becoming a member here just for the game ...

i cannot see a good thing in that ...

[Jejima 1,384]

Thinking about it overnight, a simple 3 pts, 2pts, 1 pt, 0 pts ranking for four rikishi wuoldn't really work when up against another player. All you would need is for your 3 pt player to win, and for your opponent's not too, and then your opponent would require ALL of their remaining 3 rikishi to win, and all of your remaining three to lose. So the game would depend too much on the one *star* pick and favour those with Asashoryu, Kaio etc.

I think a better way would be for players to merely select 3 rikishi from their stableof 4 for any day, and then the winner is the one with the most of their three rikishi winning (this would neutralise the *star* pick).

If this ends in a tie, then the first tie-break is whether the rikishi in the first position wins or not. The second tie-break is if both rikishi in the first postion win, the one with the lower rank gives the win to the player. (So the player who puts a Juryo player in that first slot would beat one with Asashoryu there). This would make the tactics a bit more interesting. The next tie-break would be for whether the rikishi in the 2nd slot wins or not, followed by their rank. Then the 3rd opsition rikishi, and whether they win or not. Then the 'non-scoring' rikishi (left on 'the bench' for the ease of meaning), as to whether they win or not, followed by their rank.

If ALL four rikishi on both teams lose (and this is bound to happen on the rare occasion :) Then the player with the lowest ranked rikishi in their whole squad is awarded a win (this will hopefully encourage us to consider picking the lower ranked Juryo rikishi with our initial picks as a type of tactics).

Cheers,

Jejima

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

Actually, I don't like this 16 x 4 approach as

1) the difference between #1 and #16 sekitori is overwhelming compared to #17 vs #32. Think about it, even an ideal draft last basho can come up at best with a 9-6 rikishi for #15 and #16, while #32 still is 8-7. Not much of a competition, especially considering...

2) Only four rikishi to manage for daily playing isn't much of a game, from view of managing the team as well for scoring

So I still like the 8 x 8 scheme, as it leaves a lot more room for daily playing and the squads strength differences from drafting isn't that much inherently skewed. This would give a much better game. Even the lopsided scoring approach of 8, 7, ..., 1 (as your approach for 4 rikishi teams) would give the top rikishi only a weight of 8 / 36 = .222.

Edited December 3, 2004 by Doitsuyama

[Jejima 1,384]

I disagree with Doitsuyama on this. Managing 8 rikishi takes time, and there are plenty of games already that take time to play.

Also, unless all the rikishi in your team score somehow, you would probably stick with the top players in your squad, and ignore the rest.

With 3 out 4 counting, all rikishi in the squad would play an important in your tactics. With the rules as laid out earlier, it is not necessary such a good tactic to have Asashoryu on yuor sure-fire top spot, as you would lose every time on the first tie-break rule (if the other player's top pick also wins). Asashoryu would probably be better used in the 2nd or 3rd spot (I doubt this would be the case in your 8 rikishi version, where Asashoryu would probably find himself welded into the top-spot for whoever was lucky enough to get him). A mid-maegashira reliable rikishi such as Roho could well prove to be more valuable. This could well mean that someone picking 8th or 9th might have an advantage over someone picking first.

I would also say it is more fun to compete against 15 different players over different days during a basho, than whatever plan you would come up with using 8 in a division.

Whilst one or two players being kosho in a 16 player division would be annoying, it would make an 8 player division very weird.

I've fleshed out the whole idea of a four-rikishi, 16 player division game, based on my above suggestions into something which I *know* could well become a very interesting game. Unfortunately with Bench Sumo, I am too busy to run a Beta-Test (with say one test division of 16 players) next basho - plus Kabochajima would kill me if I spend any more time on sumo games :-D But if anyone else has the time / energy / interest I could pass on the fully formed plan for them to implement (not difficult to do - just involves time) as a pen-and-paper / email exercise to test it out. (This is how Bench Sumo started).

I would suggest that someone else does the same with an 8-player division suggestion, once the rules have been thought out. Then run both games, and see which one is more enjoyable / fairer :-(

So, anyone with an hour to spare on a daily basis next basho willing to beta test my idea?

Jejima

[Jejima 1,384]

Maybe the above post is putting the cart before the horse.....

Are their 16 players out there who would be interested in beta testing my idea (based on sekihiru's suggestion)?

Make that 15 other players, as I would be interested :-D

Jejima

[aderechelsea 125]

as i said before .... "i am sold to Jejima's idea"

[Kintamayama 45,116]

I think, maybe, given the right conditions, and if the money is good, I MAY want to try this out..

Doh..

I am guessing Zenjimoto won't be partial to this either..

[jomojo 0]

Maybe the above post is putting the cart before the horse.....

Are their 16 players out there who would be interested in beta testing my idea (based on sekihiru's suggestion)?

Make that 15 other players, as I would be interested :-(

Jejima

Yo bro! To beta-test a Jejima proposed game ... now that opportunity doesn't come along everyday. I'm definitely interested in taking part in this bit of sumogame history. :-D

I could see it eventually emerging as a firm favourite ... perhaps even to oneday rival Benchsumo in its popularity among dedicated sumogamers. Reminds me a bit of the "Benchsumo II - The Maegashiras Revenge" proposal from a while back. Although you have placed this idea into a whole new conceptual framework, which will give it quite a different feel.

jomojo

[Azumashida 1]

You can cout me in too for the beta test, sounds like a nice and original idea of a game...

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

Well, I'm in of course... the bigger problem seems to be the horse, not the cart. :-D

[Golynohana 320]

Yeah, a new sumo game :-D

I haven't even read the rules of this game, but you can count me in!

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

If I may?

[Gernobono 466]

nice idea

i would love to participate