An idea for a new sumo game

[Jejima 1,384]

Many thanks Zeokage.

I figured out how to use

code

yesterday, but didn't have time to make the changes. BTW on my computer I am getting wrap for the last column, so that it merges with the first for the promtions / demotions tables in Juryo and Makushita.

It turns out that I have the afternoons off from work the week after next, so I should be able to give the full rules then, if I don't get a chance next week :)

Cheers,

Jejima

[Jejima 1,384]

If the ranking has the whole of the East side of a division placing before the West side, wouldn't that go against the tree idea that you have posted?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, not at all. Trust me (In a state of confusion...)

[Zeokage 0]

Definately got the trust going (In a state of confusion...)

An easy way to get away from the wrap is to cut and paste into Notepad. It uses the monospace fonts for it's default so you would get the same result.

[furanohana 3]

Well, if there is still a possibility, I'd sure like to try this news game too !

(but there is already a full 16-member division... that means that there should be 15 other new volunteers to come with me... :(

[Jejima 1,384]

Well, if there is still a possibility, I'd sure like to try this news game too !

You're first reserve (Sign of approval) .

Full Beta rules of the new game to appear next week.....

(Christmas time...)

[Fujisan 533]

I'm sure I will get in on some of the action at a later date aswell- (Hugging...)

I always say you can never have enough sumo games!

[Gusoyama 103]

Interesting pick order. Very unconventional, but then again, there are significant dropoffs from 1-16.

[Jejima 1,384]

Hi everybody,

I am hoping to delegate away most of my Bench Sumo duties for the January Basho, in order to run the Beta test of this game....

Rules:

Please note that these are the rules for the Beta Test of the new game which needs a new name as 'Joker Poker Sumo' no longer really applies. Since I wrote that name (based on the 16x4 version), I've scrapped the Poker element in my planning, and all but scrapped the Jokers (which will be retained in a minor way for the drones). Rules may well be adapted - or in the worse case scenario, started from scratch - after the beta test.

The way for making the picks are as previously described. The order for the rikishi (A - H one each side) will be based on the most up-to-date Super Banzuke at the time of the new banzuke being being published, for the Beta Testers. As it currently stands, this would be.... (numbers show the current ranks)

East side

A Doitsuyama 2

B Kintamayama 3

C Zenjimoto 4

D Gernobono 18

E Oshirokita 22

F Azumaryu 23

G Jejima 40

H Jakusotsu 81

West side

A jomojo 99

B Golynohana 123

C Gusoyama 214

D Sekihiryu 219

E Aderchelseamaru 239

F Nishinoshima a

G Hamanoyama b

H Zeokage c

(nb the last three players don't appear to be on the Super Banzuke as yet, and so I've just ranked them in order of 'signing up').

If the game turns out to be a success, then for the next basho, when the game opens up, the 16 beta testers will be arranged with the top 4 from the Beta East side in the A-D slots, and the top 4 on the Beta West side in the E-H slots. The new West side will be the 5-8 from the East side in the slots A-D on the West side, and the 5-8 from the Beta West side into the E-H slots.

All of the above players should send their list of all 70 rikishi as outlined on the new banzuke in their order of preference to Jejima preferably within the first week of the new banzuke being published. Jejima will then work out which player gets which rikishi (Showing respect...)

The order of matches will be as previously outlined.

How do you win? Well, the rules are such that predictions are important (this includes losses), but with the slight emphasis on wins. This means you may actually *want* to pick a rikishi that is ranked above his station - in that you're banking on him losing a lot. This also levels the playing field for the picks somewhat.

Your team is divided into three:-

1. Hole - You put a predicted WINNER into this slot. (NB You cannot put a predicted LOSER in this slot)

2. Rank and File - You put four of your players into these slots. The order doesn't matter. In addition to putting the names of your 4 rikishi into these slots, you need to predict whether they will be winners or losers. If you forget to add winner or loser by a rikishi's name, it will be assumed that you have predicted the rikishi as a WINNER.

3. Reserves - Your remainder three rikishi are put here. They are only used in the case of a fusensho / fusenpai match involving one of your rikishi. If your rikishi is involved in such a match, then if he is taking part as a predicted WINNER, he is automatically replaced by the first of your reserves. If your rikishi is taking part as a predicted LOSER, then he is automatically replaced by the last of your reserves. Of course there could be a rare occasion (such as two of your rikishi facing each other in such a match), when you will have two (or all three) of your rikishi are replacing the fus rikishi. If there are four of your rikishi involved, then tough, you pick up an automatic wrong prediction :-)

If you lose a player who goes kyujo (please note, this also applies to rikishi who turn out to be kyujo only once the day one schedule has been published), then you get the highest rikishi from your original list that has not yet been taken, which you can use on the FOLLOWING day (not on the day that the fusensho/fusenpai takes place. Note that this rule differs to the drone rules as outlined below) - or on day one of the basho, if it is the case that your kyujo is not listed on the day 1 schedule. If two rikishi go kyujo on the same day, then the player who has lost the higher ranking rikishi will be given his new rikishi first. If a rikishi returns from injury, he DOES NOT return to his original owner's team, but he DOES return to the pool of unpicked players, and so may in fact end up on another player's team.

Players will need to send their line-ups to me each day prior to 3.00 JST of the bouts. Failure to do so will mean I'll use the previous day's line-up. Failure to enter a line-up for day one, will result in your first picked rikishi being put into the 'hole', and then the next four picked rikishi being put into the rank-and-file, all as predicted WINNERS. The reserves will be the order of the remaining three picked rikishi.

Although all players teams are known, they will not know their opponents arrangement prior to the bouts being completed. (Jejima will send his daily line-up in advance to another player to avoid cheating :-)

How to win:-

In the order for deciding the tie...

1. Hole rikishi - If one hole rikishi wins, and the other loses, the winner is the one with the winning Hole.

2. Rank-and-file predictions - the player with the higher number of correct predictions wins.

3. Rank of the winning Hole. If both players have winning Holes and an equal number of correctly predicted rank-and-filers, then the player with the lowest ranking Hole wins.

4. Lowest rank of correctly predicted rank-and-file winner. If both players have losing Holes and an equal number of correctly predicted rank-and-filers, then the player with the lowest ranking predicted winner wins.

5. Highest rank of correctly predicted rank-and-filer loser. If both players have losing Holes and an equal number of correctly predicted rank-and-filers, and no correctly predicted winners, then the player with the highest ranking predicted loser wins.

6. If neither player makes even one correct prediction (hole or rank-and-filer), then the East side rikishi wins. If they are both on the East side, or both on the West side, then the original first picker of the two (ie A - H) wins. (NB This is also the 3rd rule for bouts involving two drones - see below)

At the end of the basho for deciding the final order of the players in the division (which affects the make-up of the banzuke for the following basho), these rules apply:-

1. Number of Hoshitori wins

1a. Non drones. In the case of a drone tie-ing with a non-drone on the hoshitori, the non-drone gets precendence.

2. In the case of a tie, then the head-to-head results of the players involved decides order.

3. in the case of a tie (eg 3 players are tied, and they each lost one, and won one of the matches against the other two), then the better predictor of 'Holes' wins. NB, a mixture of rules 2 and 3 may be used to determine order.

4. As above, but total number of correct overall predictions.

5. As above, but total number of correctly predicted WINNERS.

6. Whoever was originally the higher picker of the three or more rikishi still tied after all this!

Kyujo rules:-

Due to the nature of this game, it needs to be much more strict on kyujo players as this game will be less fun if the tiny divisions have lots of non-active players replaced by boring drones....

There are no kosho rules. If a player is 'kyujo' for one basho (ie does not make an entry), he or she will be replaced by a drone called by their shikona+drone. eg, if Jejima does not enter, a Jejimadrone will take his place. The player will replace the drone for the basho. However, a player-drone is NOT allowed to be promoted up a division, and so will be pushed down the final result table - if need be - to the first position that ensures that this does not happen. A player-drone can remain in the same level of division (based on his / her drone's efforts), or get moved down a division if their drone sucks. A player going kyujo for two basho in a row will be replaced for the second basho by a 'ghost', eg Jejimaghost. The player-ghost ends up the basho in the same way as a player-drone. However, once the new banzuke has been completed as outlined in a previous post, all 'ghosts' are removed, and all players are moved up the banzuke to fill up the gaps.

Intai

Any players going intai need to have made that announcement prior to a new Ozumo banzuke being published. Failure to do so will have them playing that basho as a player-ghost (even if it is their first kyujo basho in a row). Otherwise all active players are moved up the banzuke to fill in the gaps.

Drone rules:-

There are three types of drones. Player-drones and Player-ghosts are as outlined above. Drone-drones are created to fill up the lowest division of the banzuke.

All three types of drones are created in the same way.

Once all active players have made their picks, the drones make theirs. In the divisional order of the drones (if there are more than 1 drone in a division), each drone takes the highest four (note only four!) unpicked rikishi left on the banzuke. These four are rikishi are the rank-and-filers and their default pick are as 'WINNERS'. This only changes if two of the drones picks are facing each other, in which case, the drone has the lower ranked of the two rikishi changed to 'LOSER'. In addition to the four rank-and-filers from the banzuke, the drone also gets a 'joker' for its Hole. For fun, these jokers will be named after greats of the past.

We need 8..... I suggest the following

A: Raiden

B: Futabayama

C: Taiho

D: Chiyonofuji

E: Kitanoumi

F: Takanohana II

G: Musashimaru

H: Akebono

All jokers are automatic winners. This means that a regular player needs to correctly predict a winner for their hole, or else lose on win rule #1. Should a drone and a non-drone tie on rules #1 and 2, then the active player will automatically win on rule #3.

In the case of two drones tie-ing on rule #2, then the two drones jump straight to rule #6 to decide the winner.

If one or more of the drones rikishi are involved in a fusensho / fusenpai bout, then they immediately replace that / those rikishi with the highest ranked unclaimed rikishi and that rikishi's results kick in on the same day as the fusensho / fusenpai occurs. The change remains with the drone for the remainder of basho.

Shukunsho rules.... (NB - only one prize to be awarded per division)

Outstanding Performance Prize - Most number of correct 'holes' - tie break... lowest ranked rikishi getting a hole.

Technique Prize - Total number of correct predictions - tie break - the lowest ranked rikishi contributing the most to the player's total number of correct predictions.

Fighting Spirit Prize - Total number of correct WINNERS predictions - tie break - the lowest ranked rikishi contributing the most to the player's total number of correct WINNER predictions.

I think those are all the rules. If there are any loopholes let me know :-) I am hoping to include some sort of transfer window for nakabi, but am still working out how that can be done without causing chaos.....

As mentioned at the start of the post, these are just the rules for the beta basho, so if there is anything in the above that you *really* don't like, please live with it for at least the beta basho :-) - it would be very difficult to pleae everyone!

Jejima (Showing respect...)

Edited December 19, 2004 by Jejima

[Kintamayama 45,116]

All of the above players should send their list of all 66 rikishi as outlined on the new banzuke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Should be 70, no?

[Jejima 1,384]

All of the above players should send their list of all 66 rikishi as outlined on the new banzuke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Should be 70, no?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, I've edited that mistake, plus a few others..... So the above post should be okay now (Showing respect...) (Showing respect...)

[Jejima 1,384]

I've also now edited the above post to include the shukunsho rules. (Sign of approval)

...and I think I've worked out how to use the transfer window too. I'll write about that tomorrow. (Showing respect...)

Edited December 18, 2004 by Jejima

[Asashosakari 19,320]

G Hamanoyama b

(nb the last three players don't appear to be on the Super Banzuke as yet, and so I've just ranked them in order of 'signing up').

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hamanoyama is currently #15 on the Super Banzuke.

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

I also wanted to question Hamanoyama's dubious Super banzuke non-existence.

Since this seems to be 16 players x 8 rikishi game (correct me if I'm wrong!), every rikishi could be selected two times, right? Then the tie-breaker rules should deal with the possibility of even rikishi ranks...

[Jejima 1,384]

Apologies to Hamanoyama!

Revised version:-

East side

A Doitsuyama 2

B Kintamayama 3

C Zenjimoto 4

D Hamanoyama 15

E Gernobono 18

F Oshirokita 22

G Azumaryu 23

H Jejima 40

West side

A Jakusotsu 81

B jomojo 99

C Golynohana 123

D Gusoyama 214

E Sekihiryu 219

F Aderchelseamaru 239

G Nishinoshima a

H Zeokage b

Yes, as explained in a previous post, the system is now 2x8x8 which means that each rikishi will get picked twice in the division - once on the East side, and once on the West side. Remember also that the first week is the East vs West Championship flag, in that each player from the East side will have met each player from the West side by nakabi. Looking at the form book, you would expect the East side to be able to defeat the West side - but I am sure they'll have something to say about that (Showing respect...)

Off to bed now.... Will answer any more queries, as well as giving details about the Nakabi Transfer window when I wake up! (Showing respect...)

[Takanorappa 97]

How did I miss this thread! :'-( Missed the beta, but I'll be sure to watch this one from the sidelines. It sounds very intriguing! (Sign of approval) Please sign me up for Beta 2 (Showing respect...)

[Jejima 1,384]

Transfer window rules....

When a player send in their entry for day 7, they may also include a list of any rikishi on their team that they wish to ditch (from 0 - 8). Drones will automatically ditch all four of their rikishi. However players should note that they will keep these rikishi for days 7 AND 8. (So will only have a changed team after the Championship Flag part of the Basho has been completed).

Along with the Day 7 results, I will give the list of all rikishi back in the 'pool'. These include all the rikishi which were previously not on a team, all rikishi previously belonging to drones, and all the rikishi returned by the players.

Then along with their Day 8 entries, ALL players (including those who haven't ditched anyone) should rank the 'pool' players in order of preference - including the rikishi that they have personally ditched.

Then along with the day 8 results, Jejima will publish the list of the new teams, to be used from day 9 until the end of the basho.

The first dipper of the pool (Showing respect...) will be player H (only one rikishi), then player G, and so on down to player A (of course, only taking rikishi if they need it to get back to their original eight for their team). Then back to player H again for the second round, and so on, until all players have 8 rikishi again. This of course means that you might get back a rikishi that you thought you'd ditched! Then the drones get assigned their 4 rikishi in the same way as at the start of the basho.

Please note that the East side and West side pools are separate, and cannot be mixed.

These revised teams cannot be changed for the remainder of the basho.

If a rikishi goes kyujo from your squad, then the revised list of preferences (from Day 8) is used to see who your replacement will be. (If you forget to do this, then the original list will be used). This is why even those players who don't make any squad changes should still rank the pool.

In this case a returning kyujo player will go automatically to the bottom of everyone's list (and for fairness - even for those players who didn't enter their pool list on Day 8, and so are to use their day 1 entry), but I doubt that this would be a regular event (Showing respect...)

Rule inviolations...

Remembering from the early pen-and-paper days of Bench Sumo, when we used to have 'drug-checking', it can be quite easy (sometimes) to make a mistake with your line-up.

Therefore, better to have rules for such instances....

If you enter a rikishi which is not part of your current squad (and so be careful to remember the changes for the second week!), that rikishi gets an automatic 'wrong prediction' for that rikishi.

If a player enters a rikishi twice (used to happen with BS!) or more in their squad, the first mention of the rikishi remains intact, the second is an automatic 'wrong prediction'.

[Zenjimoto 40]

super banzuke is down but i am sure i am on it somewhere

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um, the SB is not down, and you are currently not on it, either :-)

Cheers from Austria

Zenjimoto

[Jejima 1,384]

The 'Hole' term is taken from Poker's 'Texas Hold 'em' variation. The 'Hole' are the cards that are two cards that are unique to each player, and so are the key source for bluffing. (see http://www.holdempoker.com/learn/)

I therefore think it is quite an apt term for this new game, as one of the key aspects to tactics will hopefully revolve around trying to guess who your opponent's Hole rikishi will be, and daring to go lower.....

(Hatching egg...)

[jomojo 0]

Hi Jejima. You've put a lot of interesting concepts together for this new game. I'm looking forward to the inaugurating basho for this new daily sumogame. Team transfers is an interesting innnovation and so is predicting losers as well as winners for a daily game. I can see why it makes sense not to have kosho in these smaller divisions as well.

(Sign of approval)

jomojo

[jomojo 0]

(Feeling artistic...) how about calling this game:

Pick 'n' Mix Sumo

jomojo

[Jejima 1,384]

The beta testing name for the game will be 'Rikishi in the hole', largely for the reason that I have just created a gmail account to be used for this game with the gmail address rikishi.in.the.hole@gmail.com

When the new banzuke is published, please can all Beta players send their list of all 70 rikishi ranked in order of preference to that email address!

I would prefer it if you could send it something like this...

1. Kaiho

2. Toki

3. Miyabiyama

.

.

.

.

.

68. Kotomitsuki

69. Takamisakari

70. Tochiazuma

For my ease, and to make sure there is no confusion, please avoid using nicknames (eg Robocop, Elvis, Stumblebum, fetid rotting slime creature etc) and just use the full shikonas of each rikishi.

Cheers,

Jejima

[Oshirokita 188]

The beta testing name for the game will be 'Rikishi in the hole', largely for the reason that I have just created a gmail account to be used for this game with the gmail address rikishi.in.the.hole@gmail.com

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I was going to suggest "Ace in the Hole Sumo". "Rikishi in the hole" sounds fine to me.

[Jejima 1,384]

The new banzuke is out, and so it is time for all beta-testers of 'Rikishi-in-the-Hole' (Rith) to send in their list of preferences to me. Please send an email with them ranked in order to rikishi.in.the.hole@gmail.com as soon as possible. If you could all send them in to me by January 1st, then I would be very greatful :) Please remember to include your shikona in the email title, and in the email text.

I've realised that there are a couple of very minor loopholes in the rules as they now stand, and so when I get a minute (my plane leaves for Thailand in a few hours time), I will make suitable patches.

Cheers,

Jejima

Asashouryuu  Yokozuna

KaioU    Ozeki  Chiyotaikai

Wakanosato Sekiwake  Miyabiyama

          Sekiwake  Tochiazuma

Kotomitsuki Komusubi Hakuhou

Iwakiyama M1 Tochinonada

Kotonowaka M2 Tosanoumi

Tamanoshima M3 Kokkai

Kotooshuu M4 Kakizoe

Rohou M5 Takamisakari

Kyokutenhou M6 Kaihou

Hayateumi M7 Kotoryuu

Hokutouriki M8 Takekaze

Takanowaka M9 Shimotori

Dejima M10 Kyokushuuzan

Asasekiryuu M11 Juumonji

Tokitsuumi M12  Kisenosato

Ama M13 Buyuuzan

Kasugaou M14 Tamakasuga

Tochisakae* M15 Harunoyama*

Kotoshoogiku* M16 Aminishiki*

Toyonoshima* M17 Tokitenkuu

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Juryo:

Gojoorou J1 Futenou

Toyozakura J2 Kitazakura

Takanotsuru J3 Wakatoba

Kasuganishiki J4 Ishide

Koubo J5 Kinkaiyama

Touki J6 Tamaasuka

Hakurozan J7 Outsukasa

Wakanoyama J8 Daishoodai

Asoofuji* J9 Youtsukasa

Wakakirin J10 Maikaze*

Kaidou J11 Asanowaka

Katayama J12 Sumanofuji*

Senshuuyama* J13 Chiyotenzan

Bushuuyama J14 Daimanazuru*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Jejima 1,384]

Already the first entry has arrived at rikishi.in.the.hole@gmail.com

Please remember to include your shikona in the email title as well as the main text (Matrix...)

Cheers,

Jejima

[aderechelsea 125]

entry sent ...

have no idea how i made it ... (Matrix...)

i will wait and see what the luck of the draw gives me and then decide my strategy.