MongolPower 0 Posted December 7, 2004 I have read something in Mongolian that if Hakuho wins 11 in January and 10 in March he can qualify for Ozeki. Is that true? I thought you have to be Sekiwake and then have 33 wins in last three tournament. Does it apply to Mageshira? Also it says that Hakuho has very rare record, which is making kachikoshi in first four tournaments in Makuuchi division. When is the earliest possibility for Hakuho to reach Ozeki? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aderechelsea 125 Posted December 7, 2004 a Maegashira 1 could fall into Ozeki consideration if he shows he's "got it" ... and if we lose Chiyotaikai too from the Ozekis we should find new,promising ones .... if you catch my drift ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gernobono 467 Posted December 7, 2004 I have read something in Mongolian that if Hakuho wins 11 in January and 10 in March he can qualify for Ozeki. Is that true? I thought you have to be Sekiwake and then have 33 wins in last three tournament. Does it apply to Mageshira? Also it says that Hakuho has very rare record, which is making kachikoshi in first four tournaments in Makuuchi division. When is the earliest possibility for Hakuho to reach Ozeki? this is just another example of trying to fit the decicions of nsk into rules....anyone on the ml thought kotomitsuki would become ozeki...he did not as we know....and if hakuho might be promoted to ozeki with 30 wins most will be surprised again.... i know that there are "rules" when past promotions are considered but again and again the kyokai shows us what those rules are woth in the end..... i would be rather interested if someone ever has heard any riji say that a rikishi needs 33 wins and a maegashira 1 position might be taken into consideration if the rikishi shows that "he got it" as adarechelsea states... @adarechelsea where do you take this knowledge from?....i do not think that it is not true, but i doubt that there is any written or said statement from any riji on that subject....all those rules are just made from observations and statistics of the past, i guess Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aderechelsea 125 Posted December 7, 2004 @aderechelsea where do you take this knowledge from?....i do not think that it is not true, but i doubt that there is any written or said statement from any riji on that subject....all those rules are just made from observations and statistics of the past, i guess i know it is not a written rule but if Hakuho wins a yusho in Hatsu and makes a 10+ basho in Haru, i believe he cannot be held out of Ozeki ranks even though he didn't become sekiwake first and then start a three basho run of 33+ wins... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,653 Posted December 7, 2004 this is just another example of trying to fit the decicions of nsk into rules... At this risk of sounding obtuse, so what? We all know that the Kyokai doesn't follow any hard rules...what's the alternative to accepting that fact, going on with our lifes, and talking about sumo as we've always done? Simply not talking at all about what the Kyokai might or might not do? (Yawning...) I'm seriously confused by the tone of your post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,192 Posted December 7, 2004 @aderechelsea where do you take this knowledge from?....i do not think that it is not true, but i doubt that there is any written or said statement from any riji on that subject....all those rules are just made from observations and statistics of the past, i guess i know it is not a written rule but if Hakuho wins a yusho in Hatsu and makes a 10+ basho in Haru, i believe he cannot be held out of Ozeki ranks even though he didn't become sekiwake first and then start a three basho run of 33+ wins... I wouldn't be surprised if he get promoted with a yusho in January, 14-1 or even 13-2 playoff. This would be similar to Chiyotaikai who got it with 9-6, 10-5, 13-2 playoff yusho. His scores would be even better with the 8-7, 12-3 start, but his ranks are lower at M2 and M1. Still, those ranks mean fighting all top rankers, and the Kyokai doesn't care much for precedences. Actually a good thing I say. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Burainoan 0 Posted December 8, 2004 Unless maybe if he wins a yusho at Hatsu or Haru and is otherwise thoroughly dominant, i think they will make him wait at least until after the Natsu just to be sure. we all know what happened the last time they promoted a guy who strung together three lucky basho, and i don't think they'll want to risk getting burned again. Hakuho is very good, but he is also very young, so i think they will want to make sure he is ready.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonosuke 28 Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) I wouldn't be surprised if he get promoted with a yusho in January, 14-1 or even 13-2 playoff. This would be similar to Chiyotaikai who got it with 9-6, 10-5, 13-2 playoff yusho. His scores would be even better with the 8-7, 12-3 start, but his ranks are lower at M2 and M1. I am not sure if his 8-7 record at M3 will mean much but this 12-3 at Kyushu will definitely count. I will say even without a Yusho, he can go at least 11-4 the next two bashos, he will be promoted to Ozeki for the May provided.....there is always this "notwithstanding" clause somewhere, right. Anyway provided that he does not suffer embarassing losses against some Hiramaku or chalk up some cheap wins. With a young rikishi like him, the image seems to come into the picture as well, as they don't have enough Makuuchi basho experience yet to gauge their true worth. Personally I feel he should have no problem attaining the 11-4 records as he has improved every basho since he came up in Maku. He is learning from his mistakes and displaying more techniques as well as strength. He can beat an Ozeki now (even a Yokozuna) so why wouldn't he get 11-4 the next two bashos? Edited December 8, 2004 by Jonosuke Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,524 Posted December 8, 2004 [ He can beat an Ozeki now (even a Yokozuna) so why wouldn't he get 11-4 the next two bashos? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would say-the wall. He hasn't hit it yet. His ex-Oyakata and mentor is waiting for it as well. They've ALL hit it at some point, I think. The wall is his enemy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hoshidango 0 Posted December 11, 2004 I agree with Doitsyama 70% and Kintamayama 30%- Looks like he can really take off further or at least 10 or 11 wins, yet still he might stuck with 7 or 8 wins.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeokage 0 Posted December 12, 2004 (edited) i know it is not a written rule but if Hakuho wins a yusho in Hatsu and makes a 10+ basho in Haru, i believe he cannot be held out of Ozeki ranks even though he didn't become sekiwake first and then start a three basho run of 33+ wins... I wouldn't be surprised if he get promoted with a yusho in January, 14-1 or even 13-2 playoff. This would be similar to Chiyotaikai who got it with 9-6, 10-5, 13-2 playoff yusho. His scores would be even better with the 8-7, 12-3 start, but his ranks are lower at M2 and M1. Still, those ranks mean fighting all top rankers, and the Kyokai doesn't care much for precedences. Actually a good thing I say. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Chiyotaikai's promotion, were those set of records made as Sekiwake? 33+ wins from the meatgrinder would probably take someone up to Ozeki wouldn't it?For example a 11-4 from M3 would at worst (in most cases I think) take someone to Komusubi, then another 11-4 to Sekiwake, one more would be the 33 wins and promotion to Ozeki. Or would there have to be something extra in there like wins over current Ozeki/Yokozuna to make it that simple? Edited December 12, 2004 by Zeokage Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,653 Posted December 12, 2004 Chiyotaikai's promotion, were those set of records made as Sekiwake? 33+ wins from the meatgrinder would probably take someone up to Ozeki wouldn't it?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> 34 wasn't enough for Kotomitsuki, FWIW, and Hakuho is in a similar situation of being a relatively unknown quantity so far, so 33/34 may or may not be enough for Hakuho. A yusho would probably help, especially in the 3rd basho of his Ozeki run (which could be Hatsu or Haru as things stand right now, but most likely Haru...I don't really believe in the possibility of an Ozeki run that starts 8-7 from M3, short of him crowning it with a zensho yusho next month). At any rate, Hakuho could theoretically become Ozeki without ever having been Sekiwake...promotion to Komusubi now, 10 wins next basho, staying at Komusubi for Haru due to lack of open slots, then at least 12 wins, making it 34+...I wonder if something like that would work against him, actually... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeokage 0 Posted December 12, 2004 Should have mentioned "barring problems with lack of space". What was it that stopped Kotomitsuki? (Not sure what FWIW means...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,524 Posted December 12, 2004 Not sure what FWIW means... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> For what it's worth. Or.. Futagoyama Will Inherit Wakanohana. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted December 12, 2004 (edited) @aderechelsea where do you take this knowledge from?....i do not think that it is not true, but i doubt that there is any written or said statement from any riji on that subject....all those rules are just made from observations and statistics of the past, i guess i know it is not a written rule but if Hakuho wins a yusho in Hatsu and makes a 10+ basho in Haru, i believe he cannot be held out of Ozeki ranks even though he didn't become sekiwake first and then start a three basho run of 33+ wins... I wouldn't be surprised if he get promoted with a yusho in January, 14-1 or even 13-2 playoff. This would be similar to Chiyotaikai who got it with 9-6, 10-5, 13-2 playoff yusho. His scores would be even better with the 8-7, 12-3 start, but his ranks are lower at M2 and M1. Still, those ranks mean fighting all top rankers, and the Kyokai doesn't care much for precedences. Actually a good thing I say. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No rule, but precedence: HakkeYoi shows 4 cases of an M1 becoming Ozeki three basho later. Chiyonoyama only had 28 wins! (Edit on this point: these were 11-day bashos). I didn't even bother searching for similar cases below M1, nor did I research special conditions (e.g. no ozeki and no yokozuna on the banzuke at the time) that might have accelerated these promotions. Edited December 12, 2004 by Yoavoshimaru Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted December 12, 2004 Should have mentioned "barring problems with lack of space". What was it that stopped Kotomitsuki? (Not sure what FWIW means...) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Acronym Finder is your friend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MongolPower 0 Posted December 13, 2004 No rule, but precedence: HakkeYoi shows 4 cases of an M1 becoming Ozeki three basho later. Chiyonoyama only had 28 wins! (Edit on this point: these were 11-day bashos). Basically if Hakuho wins 12+12 next two basho he will be Ozeki in May! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeokage 0 Posted December 14, 2004 How about this search? Same query as earlier, but rank number taken out... M4W to Ozeki in 3 basho by Kaiketsu in 1976/77. 36 wins though including a Yusho at that M4W spot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yangnomazuma 79 Posted December 14, 2004 I think more telling, and I hope I didn't butcher the Hakke Yoi query so badly that I'm now misinformed, only one person (Taiho in 1960-61) has managed to make it from Makunouchi debut to Ozeki in 7 or fewer basho. Is this true? If so, it would seem folly to expect Hakuho to be promoted prior to that unless he goes above and beyond the current "standard". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted December 14, 2004 I think more telling, and I hope I didn't butcher the Hakke Yoi query so badly that I'm now misinformed, only one person (Taiho in 1960-61) has managed to make it from Makunouchi debut to Ozeki in 7 or fewer basho. Is this true? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, with the usual caveat "since 1947". In older days there could be faster promotions than that. For example, Maedayama (later the 39th yokozuna) was promoted to ozeki in 1938 after only 3 basho in makuuchi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xris 2 Posted December 14, 2004 I think more telling, and I hope I didn't butcher the Hakke Yoi query so badly that I'm now misinformed, only one person (Taiho in 1960-61) has managed to make it from Makunouchi debut to Ozeki in 7 or fewer basho. Is this true? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, with the usual caveat "since 1947". In older days there could be faster promotions than that. For example, Maedayama (later the 39th yokozuna) was promoted to ozeki in 1938 after only 3 basho in makuuchi. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Speaking of Maedayama, goto this page http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kiroku_daicho/me.../maedayama.html and play the second film "1947 June Basho, final day " and you will see the attached picture. Apparently, Asashoryu is not the only left hander in sumo ! (Nodding yes...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted December 14, 2004 Speaking of Maedayama, goto this page http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kiroku_daicho/me.../maedayama.html and play the second film "1947 June Basho, final day " and you will see the attached picture. I was very confused until I realized that you meant the first film. (Nodding yes...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
