Frowned upon Sumo techniques

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

I think the main technique I dislike is hatakekomi on the tachiai. As a watcher I feel kind of robbed when it happens. After waiting through all the build-up and ceremony leading up to a bout, it's over in less than a second. Who would want to watch sumo if most matches were like this? Not me.

I remember about a year or so ago when on the final day Chiotaikai was in the by one match over Tochiazuma. Tochi would have to beat Chiyo twice to win Yusho. Chiyo was on a roll that tournament, and there was no rikishi that could withstand his thrusting attacks head-to-head. In the first bout, Tochiazuma used exactly this technique to beat Chiyo. He then beat Chiyo again in the second bout because I think Chiyo was unable to get a good tachiai after that, but I still think the technique he used in the first bout cheapens the yusho.

What are some of the bouts you remember where you didn't like the technique used?

[Zentoryu 154]

I think the main technique I dislike is hatakekomi on the tachiai. As a watcher I feel kind of robbed when it happens. After waiting through all the build-up and ceremony leading up to a bout, it's over in less than a second. Who would want to watch sumo if most matches were like this? Not me.

I remember about a year or so ago when on the final day Chiotaikai was in the by one match over Tochiazuma. Tochi would have to beat Chiyo twice to win Yusho. Chiyo was on a roll that tournament, and there was no rikishi that could withstand his thrusting attacks head-to-head. In the first bout, Tochiazuma used exactly this technique to beat Chiyo. He then beat Chiyo again in the second bout because I think Chiyo was unable to get a good tachiai after that, but I still think the technique he used in the first bout cheapens the yusho.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but you've got you're bout history a little mixed up. (Pulling hair...)

Tochiazuma won the first bout by Oshidashi after absorbing Chiyotaikai's thrusts and turning him around at the edge for the force out. Fair and square win.

The second bout (the Yusho playoff) was the one where Tochiazuma performed a Henka (sidestep at the tachi-ai) to win.

Edited January 2, 2005 by Zentoryu

[Ryukaze 0]

Asashoryu's tsuirotoshi's becasue he hurts all my favorite rikishi!!! (LOL!!! Pansies!) just kidding there tho!

In all seriousness however I will agree with you. Hatakikomi (even a henka or hikiotoshi at the tachiai mainly...) in general are quite "cheap" in my book, and yes it does leave you feeling cheated. (Seriously now don't tell me there's a soul alive who would say "Wow that was a great hatakikomi at the tachiai there! That was awesome"!) lol. "Ketaguri" is cool to see however (I remember Shoryu totally nailed Dejima a while back, and of course Dejima got hurt....).

I dont have quite as much of a problem with hikiotoshi however because it generally occurs as the match insues and not at the start when a competitor is most vulnerable, it also takes considerably more skill. Thats also not to say that there arent "those" rikishi who abuse there "hikiotoshi" rights however, (Asanowaka and Chiyotaikai to name a few....). Any type of inadvertant slip or step out, as well as a "Kinjite" is lame to see also. Good post! - Ryu

Edited January 2, 2005 by Ryukaze

[Sasanishiki 57]

OK, this example is from amateur sumo, not ozumo. I was at the World Champs in 2004 and the Japanese open weight female Rie Tsuihiji was demolishing all before her. I got the feeling that I was being cheated because the bouts were so quick (not really, but it was a bit boring). She came up to the semi-final against a slightly better opponent (Russian or German, can't remember). Anyway, the opponent performed a technically brilliant hatakikomi and won the bout. She didn't budge, just absorbed Tsuihiji's tachiai and had judged that hatakikomi was the most appropraite technique to counter her opponent's tachiai. I was enthralled and excited. The crowd too was excited by the result. Not all hatakikomi are bad. Situation dependent I would say.

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

Sorry, but you've got you're bout history a little mixed up.  (Pulling hair...) 

Tochiazuma won the first bout by Oshidashi after absorbing Chiyotaikai's thrusts and turning him around at the edge for the force out. Fair and square win.

The second bout (the Yusho playoff) was the one where Tochiazuma performed a Henka (sidestep at the tachi-ai) to win.

OK, I guess my memory is a little fuzzy. But I still think it was a cheap win. I think pulling, side-stepping and slap-downs (from the back of the head) should be avoided most of the time, like Ryukaze, but especially at tachiai.

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

Seriously now don't tell me there's a soul alive who would say "Wow that was a great hatakikomi at the tachiai there! That was awesome"!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did, when Hakuho performed his infamous henka on yusho-contender Hokutoriki in May. I was very excited to watch and I still think it was great - the perfect prelude for the kettei-sen. But of course I'm very alone on this bandwagon, I know...

[Kintamayama 45,117]

Seriously now don't tell me there's a soul alive who would say "Wow that was a great hatakikomi at the tachiai there! That was awesome"!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did, when Hakuho performed his infamous henka on yusho-contender Hokutoriki in May. I was very excited to watch and I still think it was great - the perfect prelude for the kettei-sen. But of course I'm very alone on this bandwagon, I know...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm very much on that bandwagon. I am a vocal supporter of all types and shapes of henka (hatakis, hikis and Asanowaka)-always was, always will be. Part of the fun... Even when my guy loses by it, for those interested.

[Araiwa 0]

Great view Shiroikuma!

There is nothing more to add I'd say.

One thing I wonder is the difference of brilliant henka or a henka nobody wants to see. For me henka is henka, its a refusion to fight the opponent. I like it or I like it not, there is no exciting or boring henka in my eyes.

I miss Musoyama.

[paolo 0]

Hatakikomi is not necessarily bound to a henka, and so not necessarily is hatakikomi ugly.

I agree on the fact that a henka is disappointing, even if we might say that the threat of a henka can be a part of a strategy. Anyway if all bouts were won by a henka, sumo would disappear....

But hatakikomi's is often used as a brilliant technique: for instance, take

Asashoryu-Kotomitsuki (last basho, day 4). Asashoryu wants to take a grip at

the mawashi, and Kotomitsuki does not want to allow him to do so. Therefore Kotomitsuki leans forward a lot, to keep Asashoryu as far as he can from his own mawashi. Asashoryu patiently moves Kotomitsuki some inches back and leaning slightly more and more forward, then all of a sudden he moves his left arm and hand to Kotomitsuki's neck, he steps back and to the right and it's over !! It is even hard to see at normal speed how easily and beautifully the manouver is performed: this is great technique !

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Some hatakikomi give an impression of power and sturdyness whereas some are feeble backfoot retreats. Same goes for hikiotoshi. There are some really strong hikiotoshi/hatakikomi where the winner stays more or less put and just presses his foe down. When foe's loss is not due to slip or completely erratic forward lean, the hatakikomi/hikiotoshi can have an aura of real power. In cases like Chiyotaikai's pulls while backing up in half-panic and just managing to stay on tawara while his foe goes down, such cases are much less powerful and leave an impression of a no-good win or a weak win.

When Toki was in his prime with health and used heavy tsuki and nodowa to bend his foes backwards and then yanked the back of the neck strongly, that certainly looked awesome at times. Same with Chiyotaikai actually. He too generated a lot of power and every now and then smashed his foes down onto their faces.

All in all, I think there are many quality levels in these non-forward going winning kimarite.

The sumodou matter of principle is another story and of course if all other wins except going all out forward are considered less loyal to the principles of sumodou regardless of the quality of the non-forward winning move, then it is an axiom that all hatakikomi/hikiotoshi are frowned upon but that principle is very idealistic especially when so many strong oshi-rikishi exist and there are so many opportunities for slapdowns/pulldowns (it is difficult to pull/slap anyone when they are locked in yotsu with you..).

Long sentence (Whistling...)

[Naifuzan 1]

(Seriously now don't tell me there's a soul alive who would say "Wow that was a great hatakikomi at the tachiai there! That was awesome"!)

I see you haven't seen the Swedish eurosport sumo broadcasts (Whistling...)

The commentator there seem to be impressed with each and every henka he sees and finds it a graceful and smart move.

I find it to be a part of the game and so I accept it. Even if I'd rather see a bout end in some other fashion.

[Araiguma_Rascal 0]

My Japanese mother-in-law first taught me that henka was frowned upon by making an acerbic comment when she saw one. At the time I was still very new to watching Sumo and I had thought it a clever move. I had actually wondered why more wrestlers didn't do it more often. But the more I watch, the more I have come to her point of view.

From the point of view as a spectator sport, one weakness of sumo is that each bout often ends so quickly. This is part of the reason why it is necessary to add so much ceremony, because it builds up to a climax, and it also fills the dead time. However, it is a big anticlimax if the bout ends in an instantaneous slap-down or slip. At the same time I realize that the wrestler may have times where it's a choice between either do a henka or lose. I don't mind so much if it's a last ditch effort to turn the tables, but not on the tachiai, where it is clearly a preconceived trick designed to get a cheap shiroboshi.

[AsaMoe 0]

QUOTE

(Seriously now don't tell me there's a soul alive who would say "Wow that was a great hatakikomi at the tachiai there! That was awesome"!)

I see you haven't seen the Swedish eurosport sumo broadcasts 

The commentator there seem to be impressed with each and every henka he sees and finds it a graceful and smart move.

Same in Germany. AvdG mostly uses the word "cleverly" and gives the impression, that the Henkaing deserved the victory because he was more clever.

[Ryukaze 0]

When Toki was in his prime with health and used heavy tsuki and nodowa to bend his foes backwards and then yanked the back of the neck strongly, that certainly looked awesome at times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL I don't ever even want to hear the words "Toki" and "awesome" in the same sentence! lol Toki has been weaksauce since day one, ("prime health"? whatchu talkin'bout willis?) if he had half the intensity of some of the other rikishi he might have a chance but he is just sooooo weak, lol thats about all im gonna say there.

Maybe a quick point about the "Sumodou and power" issues, some pulldowns take alot of strength. (While somewhat rare its pretty cool to see a rikishi up and grab the other guys neck while he's standing striaght up then yank him down to the dirt, that takes power!) but more often then not its a complete anti-climactic way for a match to end........................

Edited January 2, 2005 by Ryukaze

[Hakuyobaku 33]

Not , not.

Toki is awesome.

compare henka with Greek team @ Euro 2004. most didnt like it, their fans did . same with henka. and Henkaers.

Another point - not all oshizumo men do Hatakikomi a lot - well, Kokkai does not..

[Araiwa 0]

well, Kokkai does not..

I remember Kokkai steping to the side at the tachiai in some bout. And one bout slaping Kaio down. There are few guys in Makuuchi who really never step to the side. (There is no rikishi who is so offense and forward going like Musoyama was. He almost has no hataki wins and never did henka. I hope he can pass this sumo on to his students.)

The two main hataki/henka victims are Chiyotaikai and Tosanoumi. When Tosanoumi falls he really bites the dust. Tosanoumi is king of the dohyo divers. I remember one bout where he got slaped down by Takanohana and just rolled out in the second row like a mad bowling ball. (Wearing a paperbag...) When Tosanoumi and Chiyotaikai retire I think Takekaze will be the new dohyo diver.

[Hakuyobaku 33]

well, Kokkai does not..

I remember Kokkai steping to the side at the tachiai in some bout. And one bout slaping Kaio down.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well i just meant that it not in his arsenal of techniques, really.

Last 90 bouts he's had 2 Hatakikomi and no hikiotoshi. thats not a whole lot, you know.

And yes, the sidestep was against Iwakiyama. dont remember when though.

he got a good grip on Iwaki's mawashi after a sidestep and did a yorikiri as i remember.

not that it was good, no.

[Jonosuke 28]

I remember Kokkai steping to the side at the tachiai in some bout. And one bout slaping Kaio down.

They say the most difficult thing for those joining Ozumo from amateur wrestling or judo to learn is to not to pull. Because in these sports, it's so natural to grab their opponent's arms and pull towards you to brind him down or to start a throw.

Kokkai is blessed in many respects as he has a great teacher in Taiho oyakata as well oshi-zumo specialist Odake oyakata so gradually his sumo has been changing and he is certainly a good learner. Last basho he did all he could not to pull or slap after he has done it in once from a habit early on.

He is still young and learning so we really cannot fault Kokkai for occasional mishaps especially when we look at Kaiou and how many years he's been in Ozumo and he still does this pull job even though he knows he shouldn't and by doing so he is diggin his own grave.

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

Kokkai is blessed in many respects as he has a great teacher in Taiho oyakata as well oshi-zumo specialist Odake oyakata

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are You still mixing up Kokkai with Roho, or is there some background information I'm not aware of?

[sashimaru 10]

I really don't like the hatakikomi of the Ozeki in reverse gear: Chiyotaikai.

Come on move forward!

I have an aversion to henka. Although it is a legitimate weapon particularly for physically inferior Rikishi.

But I don't know who to blame: The henka-performer or the rikishi who falls for it.

[Sasanishiki 57]

1. You cannot Prove Yourself against a weaker or same strength opponent.

You can't Prove Yourself by defeating a weaker or same strength opponent, because it's automatic that you win. Such a win doesn't require anything of you, it is your duty. You must win. If you lose, you were just weak. But winning in such a match has no merit. This doesn't mean it's worthless, but it's your Duty to yourself, you are bound to win and it's expected a 100 percent.

While I can agree with the logic for a weaker opponent, surely the same logic can't apply for someone of equla stregth? I agree that you can prove yourself against a stronger or better opponent, and that against a weaker opponent there is nothing to prove. However, against an opponent of equal strength/ability there is only 50% chance of winning and so you need to overcome that (and your opponent) to win. This would be achieved by greater strength and/or skill. Hardly automatic I would think, or am I missing something?

[Hakuyobaku 33]

1. You cannot Prove Yourself against a weaker or same strength opponent.

You can't Prove Yourself by defeating a weaker or same strength opponent, because it's automatic that you win. Such a win doesn't require anything of you, it is your duty. You must win. If you lose, you were just weak. But winning in such a match has no merit. This doesn't mean it's worthless, but it's your Duty to yourself, you are bound to win and it's expected a 100 percent.

While I can agree with the logic for a weaker opponent, surely the same logic can't apply for someone of equla stregth? I agree that you can prove yourself against a stronger or better opponent, and that against a weaker opponent there is nothing to prove. However, against an opponent of equal strength/ability there is only 50% chance of winning and so you need to overcome that (and your opponent) to win. This would be achieved by greater strength and/or skill. Hardly automatic I would think, or am I missing something?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, in reality there are no equal opponents, like there are no two lines of same length. This is just a theory. so in practice your opponent is either weaker thatn you or stronger than you. hence the rest of the practical implementation of the theory.

[Kashunowaka 300]

When Toki was in his prime with health and used heavy tsuki and nodowa to bend his foes backwards and then yanked the back of the neck strongly, that certainly looked awesome at times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL I don't ever even want to hear the words "Toki" and "awesome" in the same sentence! lol Toki has been weaksauce since day one, ("prime health"? whatchu talkin'bout willis?) if he had half the intensity of some of the other rikishi he might have a chance but he is just sooooo weak, lol thats about all im gonna say there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't agree with you. He has been very weak lately, that's true. But at his best, his sumo was effective. His komusubi promotion was thoroughly deserved.

Toki and Hokutoriki are similar in that they can be very good in attacking, but almost always pathetic in defence. So when the attack doesn't work (like Toki recently), the result is plain pathetic.

[Naganoyama 5,911]

well, in reality there are no equal opponents, like there are no two lines of same length. This is just a theory. so in practice your opponent is either weaker thatn you or stronger than you. hence the rest of the practical implementation of the theory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While there may not be any opponents who are exactly equal to you at all times, someone who is approximately the same level as you will sometimes be on better and sometimes on less good form than you. You may well expect a pretty tough bout from this guy on most occasions.

[Manekineko 200]

Is not technique one of three corner-stones of sumo? (with strength-body and will-heart...) So, if you have weaker body than your opponent and know you don't stand a chance to beat him head on, is it against sumo-do to do it with superior technique? I don't think anyone considers Mainoumi to be an unworthy sumo wrestler, or Kaiho (Punk rocker...) but both of them often side-step(ped) their oponents and dance(d) circles around them. I admire their superior skill which enables them to overcome more powerful oponents... without men and techniques such as these, sumo would be far less exciting.