who do you think is better?

[_the_mind_ 0]

hello everyone, this is my first time posting so i apologize if i am asking this in the wrong area or not, so please dont be too harsh on me.

i was wondering who everyone thinks is better overall wrestler kotooshu or kokkai? and possibly a reason why so i might be more enlightened. i live in the Florida, US and dont get much sumo news here at all.

neither kokkai or kotooshu is my favorite rikishi or anything, but as kotooshu beat kokkai to komosubi and will be known as the first european sanyaku eventhough he came into Makuuchi much later. i was just curious anyone thought on the matter.

i do apologize if this has been asked in the past, this is my first day. thank you for your patience.

[Kashunowaka 300]

The fact that Kotooshu beat Kokkai to komusubi isn't that important - Osh had a bit of banzuke luck, and Kokkai could have been there with some luck nearly a year ago.

Kokkai has been in same region of the banzuke for about a year now, so it seems that he has found his level. He is strong in some respects but lacking in others. I think he will get to sanyaku soon, but it's hard to see him advance further than sekiwake.

I always thought Kotooshu was the more talented one, and I don't think we should write him off just because of his 4-11. It does make you stop and wonder though ... The coming year should give some answers.

Welcome to the forum!

[Kasugaran 0]

Kotooshuu is definitely better, although Haru doesn't really reflect that.... Kotooshuu is skillfull and has the basics of Sumo sorted. Kokkai on the other hand has flaws in his game which he doesn't seem to be able to fix. Until he gets that balance thing worked out he will struggle at the top. However..... his physique is better than Kotooshuu and should he fix the flaws, then it would be a real competition. At this time however, I can't see any attempt by Kokkai to change his ways...

Just one man's opinion

Edited March 30, 2005 by kasugaoonofan

[Guest Guy Caballero]

I think Kokkai is better right now but that Kotooshu will be better in the long run.

Kokkai is a great brawler with a crushing tachiai, but he's a clutz. He overextends and takes himself out of the match often, and he's not so hot on the mawashi. I don't think he'll improve much in these areas.

Kotooshu seems to have the fundamentals down. I'm at a total loss to explain his record this tournament. I'd have to say he lacked confidence. If that was the case, he should be able to rebound nicely at a lower rank and work his way back into sanyaku. He's going to be around for a looooong time. I see ozeki in his future.

[_the_mind_ 0]

interesting insites, thank you for the replys. and thank you for the welcome Kashu :)

i pretty much agree with the assessments of both rikishi, however i think its a bit premature to say kokkai cant fix what is wrong with him, the balance and fighting at arms length.

however i think kotooshu got a taste of what its like to fight sanyaku's this time. while it was only his first time and he might have just been unfamiliar with the fighters, it also is that which he must learn to beat or never be a high rank fighter. the top of the banzuke is the top for a reason, if you cant beat them with any consistency then you cant stay there (as we all know).

Edited March 30, 2005 by _the_mind_

[Jakusotsu 5,969]

My two cents: Kotooshu gives the impression to be a much more "complete" rikishi than Kokkai, showing good footwork, balance, speed and throwing skills. He's still lacking some bulk and strength, but that can be developed over time.

Kokkai on the other hand is purely oshi and very strong at that, but with one major flaw: he tends to leave his feet behind when going forward and lacks balance.

[Naifuzan 1]

Kokkai on the other hand is purely oshi and very strong at that, but with one major flaw: he tends to leave his feet behind when going forward and lacks balance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Miyabiyama did this a lot a while ago, and he managed to fix it. If only for a short period of time, cause it seems he's back there now (Applauding...)

To stay on the topic, I dont really know who's better of the two, but I do think osh has the most potential.

There seems to be room to add a bit more weight and strenght for him, and if he does he might become a real monster. In a good way of course.

[Elenrian 0]

Kotooshu looks better than Kokkai... I think Kokkai is often very down when he fights, and that's why he loses... Kotooshu doesn't have this problem. He is bigger and thiner and has more techniques; so he has a great advantage while fighting. Besides, he is three years youger than Kokkai. It is not very important, but...

Kokkai was the first european makuuchi, but he is not the best...

And there is no denying that Osh is jolly prettier than Kokkai!!! (Cloverleaf...)

Edited March 30, 2005 by Elenrian

[Kintamayama 45,132]

And there is no denying that Osh is jolly prettier than Kokkai!!! (Cloverleaf...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, there isn't.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Perhaps the main difference is that Kokkai seems "ready", is already "old" and hasn't brought anything new to his game since his juryo yusho. He also has susceptible elbows which won't make it easier for him in the future. Kokkai is a good street fighter whereas Kotooshu has much more creativity and cleaner approach. Rikishi have gotten used to Kotooshu's reach more and more and they can better prepare for that unusual reach in counter throws and reaching the belt. Still when Kotooshu gets his left hand outside grip, he is very dangerous just like Kokkai is when he manages to keep his foe at arm's length and do his voodoo dance tsuki. Kokkai for ozeki? Never. Kotooshu for ozeki? I doubt it but not impossible.

[aderechelsea 125]

Kokkai could be better if only he had any sense of the dohyo and substantial leg-body coordination.He depends too much on bullying his opponents with harite and tsuppari but doesn't have yet the foundations to support that kind of fighting ...

i doubt though he will evolve much in th e future but "hope dies last" ...

Kotooshu has great technique but awkward sumo body. He is putting on weight lately so he could be physically ready someday soon for fighting in sanyaku and high Maegashira.

his future looks more promising to me ....

[Taizeniki 0]

To expand the topic a bit... let's throw Roho in. Roho seems to be a little more balanced than Kokkai and has made steady progress up the banzuke, and he seems to me to be better at the belt than both Kokkai and Osh.

[Zuikakuyama 1]

My thoughs are Roho is like a mix between Kokkai and Kotooshu.

He has the strength of Kokkai, and has a decent oshi attack. He also has a decent yori and throwing technique like Kotooshu. if anything, I think he has a good mix of repetoire, although he has not displayed great technique in either.

Oh, and that Kimetaoshi he did on Kaiho looked pretty wicked. Maybe he can be the next Takanonami. He certainly has the looks for an "evil one", and he certainly has the height too.

[_the_mind_ 0]

My thoughs are Roho is like a mix between Kokkai and Kotooshu.

He has the strength of Kokkai, and has a decent oshi attack.

Edited March 30, 2005 by _the_mind_

[aderechelsea 125]

kaiho just happens to be slightly above midget sized :)

Well ... everybody knew i would answer to this statement so i might just do it now .... :-D

Kaiho is 1.78 meters in height and 124 kilos in weight ... he is not a midget ... he is the next yokozuna and it is not just me who thinks so ... look at my signature .... (Applauding...)

:-)

[Coo-cook 0]

Kotooshu is better right now.....and maybe in the future, too.

Are Kokkai and Roho at their peak, physically?

[_the_mind_ 0]

kaiho just happens to be slightly above midget sized :)

Well ... everybody knew i would answer to this statement so i might just do it now .... :-D

Kaiho is 1.78 meters in height and 124 kilos in weight ... he is not a midget ... he is the next yokozuna and it is not just me who thinks so ... look at my signature .... (Applauding...)

:-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

kaiho fan huh? thats cool. i know he isnt a midget, i was just joking. but compared to the wide loads out there is he on the small side :) im pretty sure he can toss Ama around hehe...no seriously i dont dislike kaiho, he shows alot of balls out there. good strength for his size, and good technique. he looked real sharp the last few basho. i do hope to see him when they come to the US.

[aderechelsea 125]

i just wanted to show my new april fool's signature .... hehe

no hard feelings :-)

[Asashosakari 19,331]

Kotooshu is better right now.....and maybe in the future, too.

Are Kokkai and Roho at their peak, physically?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right now, I think Kokkai and Roho appear much like younger versions of Tosanoumi and Tochinonada, respectively...both very much capable of surviving in the meatgrinder and making semi-regular sanyaku appearances, but both hampered by one critical problem: Tosanoumi/Kokkai by an appalling lack of balance once their opponent survives the initial attack, and Nada/Roho by something I can only describe as mental blackouts...both have an annoying habit of losing bouts that they really should win by all rights.

At least Roho isn't doing the desperate pulls as often anymore which marked his Juryo and very early Makuuchi days.

All in all, Roho strikes me as the one more likely to overcome his problems with experience. As Kaikitsune pointed out, Kokkai just hasn't shown much in the way of improvement in the last year and a half.

I'm not sure what to think of Kotooshu at this point. He obviously hit the wall last basho, but a re-appraisal of his future really needs to wait until we see how he deals with that setback next basho.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

i was like wow a grab over both shoulders. takanonami would try to pick him up and walk him out, i wonder what he is going to do. i dont think roho is tall enough to do that to most fighters, kaiho just happens to be slightly above midget sized

Roho is only 2cm shorter that Takanonami was so basically he could do the same kime-thing Nami liked to do. At 195cm he certainly has the height to do that. Roho has very strong left uwate which he uses well. Kind of like Kotooshu in this sense. There was already one bout where Kotooshu and Roho had a yotsu bout both having their left hand outside grip. Kotooshu marched Roho out at that time. Should be interesting again when these two meet as it is quite possible that the bout goes to that same stance again and both can enjoy their preferred grips.

Roho's main problem seems to be certain sluggishness. He isn't quick in any way and is at times easily oshied even without him resorting to pulling.

[Kashunowaka 300]

Roho is only 2cm shorter that Takanonami was so basically he could do the same kime-thing Nami liked to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But surely he shouldn't try to emulate Takanonami's unorthodox style.

[Fujisan 533]

Welcome aboard Mind. (Hugging...)

Chuck in your salt and dont forget to introduce yourself properly at the introductions sub forum.

Oh and popular opinion in case you haven't noticed is in Kotooshus favour. (Nodding yes...)

[Hakuyobaku 33]

Hm.. if this WAS a poll.. would be better. ..

But still Kokkai has some inner hidden resources that you aren't even thinking of . . he he. just wait, just wait..

[_the_mind_ 0]

Hm.. if this WAS a poll.. would be better. ..

But still Kokkai has some inner hidden resources that you aren't even thinking of . .  he he.    just wait, just wait..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hm...i wanted more then one name or the other, so a poll WAS not what i was looking for. as such no one has disappointed me by just saying "kotooshu" or "kokkai". thank you

[_the_mind_ 0]

Welcome aboard Mind. (Holiday feeling...)

Chuck in your salt and dont forget to introduce yourself properly at the introductions sub forum.

Oh and popular opinion in case you haven't noticed is in Kotooshus favour. (Hugging...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thank you :).....ill pass on the introduction. i saw that forum has next to no entries, i dont want to be the only one on there with personal info (Nodding yes...)