No mono-ii?

[yamaneko 2]

Why no mono=ii on the tochiazuma, hakuho? Seems like every basho these days there are like 4 or more bouts that should have been mono-ii, but are not called. And a lot of times they are important ones like last basho, i remember a kotooshu one was a lot closer than some of the mono-ii that was actually called.

[ilovesumo 12]

Right. Thought there must be a mono-ii when I saw them falling,but, surprise, nothing... (Annoyed...)

[Mark Buckton 1]

because Hakuho was behaving less than gentlemanly and refusing to put his hands anywhere near the clay I'd venture.

When the tachiai did occur it was almost like the 1950s - Hakoho's knucks were clean.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Adachinoryu

[yamaneko 2]

yeah, i think tochiazuma was getting mad with things. Never seen a matta without a false start 2 times.

[ilovesumo 12]

Hm.....

Have to wait for Dale's work to see the same as you did.

[Gernobono 467]

those games played by hakuho were just a shame i think

but to be honest i thought tochiazuma's right foot touched the dohyo first.....

[Petr 0]

yeah, i think tochiazuma was getting mad with things. Never seen a matta without a false start 2 times.

They get probably scolded more for a false start.

[ilovesumo 12]

What's wrong with such "games"? Can't see any shame. Think back to the Kyokushuzan-Takamisakari bout. That's entertainment.

[Azumashida 1]

What's wrong with such "games"?

Maybe that what's wrong with these games is that the shinpan get so annoyed at the naughty gaijin that they don't even call a mono-ii... I think Hakuho's behaviour lately (e.g. after his loss against Kotooshu last basho) has not been helping his cause with the gyoji and shinpan in close bouts like this one... Only speculation (or rather, impression) of course...

I think Hakuho should gather himself and start behaving humbly again, he seemed to be more composed a year ago (and his sumo looked better IMHO)...

Edited January 15, 2006 by Azumaryu

[Kintamayama 45,527]

What's wrong with such "games"? Can't see any shame. Think back to the Kyokushuzan-Takamisakari bout. That's entertainment.

Big difference. Shoes and Takamisakari have a mutual niramiai war going on, but the tachi-ai is a serious matter. All the annoying mind games mentioned here are anything but mutual and are done prior to the tachiai, not during shikiri , when a good old niramiai adds to the fun. Both instigators lost today though, which may prove that this is utterly useless.

[AOZORA 0]

NHK commentators agreed that it was so close bout, however they explained no-monoii because the bout was Tochi's Nagare.

Edited January 15, 2006 by AOZORA

[Kaikitsune Makoto 209]

Watching the Stream is never good ground for appeals or opinions and need to wait until the better quality video with possible slow motions appear. Yet what suggests it was clearer than one might assume was that Tochiazuma did his "I won and am satisfied"-gesture immediately before being able to know whether there was any mono-ii coming and Hakuho looked to be very disappointed too right away as if knowing he lost. Those gestures could suggest it was clear that Hakuho went out first but one must wait..

Maybe in these kind of bouts the fact that both are in great shape and both usually have no tachi-ai timing problems make it more "annoying" when other one is deliberately stalling and not going for it. Maybe Hakuho was simply nervous or wasn't confident enough against Azuma. Who knows all the answers to all the questions?

[Dale 0]

Hm.....

Have to wait for Dale's work to see the same as you did.

I posted a long version with all the delays, as well as a couple of slow-motion videos.

Hakuho's right heel touched outside the tawara before Tochiazuma's body even broke

the plane of the dohyo. Tochiazuma no kachi.

Dale

Edited January 15, 2006 by Dale

[Shimpu 0]

Hakuho is good enough to face Azuma without pathetic stuff like this. He substantiated this several time. If he is aiming for ozekihood or higher he have to go straight forward. :-)

[Zuikakuyama 1]

Hakuho definitely caused the first 2 mattas, and for the third try, his hands didn't even touch the ground and totally jumped the gun.

He fully deserved the loss.

[SonofCyrus 0]

I was also very surprised there was not a mono-ii. It looked like Hakuho's right heel touched outside first, but if you watch again closely you will see the top of Zuma's right foot drag the clay first. I thought the rule was only the bottom of your feet are safe. I think if there was a mono-ii the discussion they would have would be more about Zuma's chance at a yusho than who hit the clay first.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Hakuho's consistent glaring weakness is tachiai. He has had this problem since he entered makuuchi, but has seeming done little to correct it. It prevents him & will prevent him from rising higher on the banzuke until he corrects it. His speed, balance, and flexiblity compensated whilst in the lower half of the top division, but now that he's in the sandbox with the big boys, he'll have to put up or shut up. Giving such an advantage to aite right off the start...he can't come back from such a disadvantage at this level. Give away the initiative in the torikumi, give away the bout.

[Takemi 0]

Concerning the outcome of todays bout with Tochiazuma vs. Hakuho. You can think all you want about Hakuho

[Doitsuyama 1,192]

It had next to nothing to do with bad behaviour and absolutely nothing with Tochiazuma's yusho chances. Get real!

The reason Tochiazuma was awarded the win by the gyoji and no mono-ii was called is that Tochiazuma had the initiative and was already pushing Hakuho out. He simply was clearly winning the bout. If you watch closely you will see that the attacker almost always gets the win here except he is clearly losing by the rules (like Kyokushuzan against Takamisakari). How often is the attacker landing on his belly while shoving the aite out on the same time? The attacker will get the win, this is the safe bet.

To be sure, the rules do have a section to cover those decisions with the murky "shinitai" or "dead body" rule. Hakuho's position could have been called shinitai as he already was on his way out.

[Kintamayama 45,527]

Concerning the outcome of todays bout with Tochiazuma vs. Hakuho. You can think all you want about Hakuho

Edited January 15, 2006 by Kintamayama

[Jejima 1,414]

I was also expecting a mono-ii - and not just beacuse my Bench Sumo depended on a Hakuho win (Clapping wildly...)

Maybe, the powers that be want a non-Asashoryu Yusho, and Tochiazuma is the best bet (conspiracy theory watch on....)

[Jakusotsu 6,049]

Strange. Nobody raised their voice at all when the very same thing happened to Aminishiki on day 2. (watch here)

[Takemi 0]

It had next to nothing to do with bad behaviour and absolutely nothing with Tochiazuma's yusho chances. Get real!

The reason Tochiazuma was awarded the win by the gyoji and no mono-ii was called is that Tochiazuma had the initiative and was already pushing Hakuho out. He simply was clearly winning the bout. If you watch closely you will see that the attacker almost always gets the win here except he is clearly losing by the rules (like Kyokushuzan against Takamisakari). How often is the attacker landing on his belly while shoving the aite out on the same time? The attacker will get the win, this is the safe bet.

To be sure, the rules do have a section to cover those decisions with the murky "shinitai" or "dead body" rule. Hakuho's position could have been called shinitai as he already was on his way out.

I cant see how this initiative thing is covered by a any rule. The shinitai rule is not covering this example in my opinion. Isnt the match over before its really over? just because you are the initiative taker does it mean you can be making misstakes that normally would cost you your win? If thats the case you could be make it a habit.

Nobody lost because of "behavior". Nobody won because his yusho is on the line. People on the forum are speculating, as usual, and that is what we do, but to get angry over what some Sumoforum members "think" happened is a bit exaggerated. Worst case, they blew a call, which won't be for the first or last time. There is no anti-Hakuhou conspiracy. I also think at least a monoii was called for, but I don't think all 5 shinpans and the gyoji were in cahoots to promote a Tochiazuma yusho. They all sat there, a few feet apart from each other. Now, unless they are telepathic, it seems really paranoid to think they concocted some conspiracy by thinking at each other, all six of them.

yes i agree with you, people in this forum are speculating so do most of us not sitting round the ring and judging. I bet hakuho is speculating too or do you think he is totally clear of why he lost? Maybe even tochiazuma is wondering wheter he earned that win or not, Im sure I would have.

I also agree with you on the no "anti-hakuho conspiracy" I would rather call it a "in the moment pro-tochiazuma conspiracy"

[Kintamayama 45,527]

I also agree with you on the no "anti-hakuho conspiracy" I would rather call it a "in the moment pro-tochiazuma conspiracy"

I bet hakuho is speculating too or do you think he is totally clear of why he lost? Maybe even tochiazuma is wondering wheter he earned that win or not, Im sure I would have.

Watch the video - Hakuhou knew he lost. He totally admitted it in his after-bout interview, which will no doubt be translated by Joe. Usually, when he feels "robbed", he says so. He has done so in the past, as have a lot of other rikishi.

That won't stop you of course believing in what you believe. and, again, how could a conspiracy be undertaken without the conspirers discussing it amongst themselves? There was no monoii, you know.

Oh. They must have decided on it in that soundproof room BEFOREHAND.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Kintamayama

[Coo-cook 0]

Hakuho really behaved bad ? I don't think so.

He didn't trigger false start ...he (and Tochiazuma too) just delayed it little bit...

What the actual bout is concerned ,...he wasn't dead body yet ....he did pull down Azuma first and then side stepped a bit and twisted and pushed same time holding Tochiazuma's armpit (he contra-attacked)

It should've been a mono-ii.

Hakuho was (still is) probably dreaming of a yusho. Maybe too much (nothing strange if you are a 20 year old boy, I think)

And, if you have a guy like Tochiazuma who is most difficult rikishi to wrestle with...I can fully undersand Hakuho's nerviousness.

Shameless? , deserved to lose?, pathetic?...no way...

Edited January 15, 2006 by Coo-cook