Tochiazuma's Promotion to Yokozuna

[TheShadow 0]

March 28th, 2006

Tochiazuma Becoming Yokozuna

Grand Sumo Council

The Grand Sumo Yokozuna Council met at the Ryokoku Kokugikan in Tokyo on the 27th and discussed the promotion of Tochiazuma to Yokozuna. Council Member Ishibashi says he needs 13 wins to be promoted at the next tournament. “If he wins the tournament it would be great but 13 wins and being a runner-up would also probably be sufficient.” he said indicating his opinion that even if he does not win the May tournament, 13 wins are the requirement for a promotion to Yokozuna.

Tochiazuma, who dominated the January tournament with 14 wins, finished the Spring Tournament with 12 wins so his chances at promotion escaped him. Kitanoumi, the Chairman of the Grand Sumo Council (former Yokozuna Kitanoumi) said “If he wins the tournament with 13 wins or more, it will be something we will discuss.”which is differs from Council Member Ishibashi’s criteria. Another authority said “12 wins would be highly valued too. Everyone is hoping for a Japanese Yokozuna.”

Edited March 29, 2006 by TheShadow

[Guest Kotooshu]

This sounds very strange to me... I thought that to become a Yokozuna, you MUST win 2 tournaments in a row...

I think that if they allow an exception, it diminishes what the rank of Yokozuna stands for: absolute domination of the Sumo world. It would also diminish Asashoryu's accomplishments. The reason there is no other Yokozuna is that it is practically impossible to win 2 tournaments in a row with Asashoryu in the competition. For many tournaments he has had to fight only the best rikishi.... and he continues to win and win. I fear that it would be a grave insult to Asashoryu and to sumo if anyone were allowed to become Yokozuna without winning 2 tournaments.

[Jejima 1,385]

I don't like it either. It would set a precedent that may later be regretted.

[ikishima 0]

The two basho rule is only a rule of thumb. I did a hakke-yoi search. Here are the Yokozuna who were promoted after 2 straight yushos.

two yusho at Ozeki

Then I removed the two yusho criteria and came up with the last 29 promotions.

last 29 promotions

and then there was Chiyonoyama who did win two straight and did not make it.

http://hakkeyoi.net/query.html?columns=3&s...o=3&show_form=0chiyonoyama

[ikishima 0]

I should mention that he was later promoted to Yokozuna after a pathetic 8-7 and then a 14-1 yusho.

So once he won two in a row and wasn't promoted then he was promoted with only 22 wins over two basho.

Regarding Tochiazuma, everyone loves to say that the world wants a Japanese Yokozuna. I think in truth what people want is a Japanese RIVAL to Asashoryu.

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

and then there was Chiyonoyama who did win two straight and did not make it.

http://hakkeyoi.net/query.html?columns=3&s...o=3&show_form=0chiyonoyama

If you (or anyone else) like to read more about him, there was an article in Issue 4 of SumoFanMagazine.

Edited April 28, 2006 by Doitsuyama

[Guest Kotooshu]

I think in truth what people want is a Japanese RIVAL to Asashoryu.

I believe that the only way that someone will become a true rival to Asashoryu is if someone shuts him out 2 tournaments in a row, or at the very least wins 2 tournaments in a single season. But to promote somebody simply on account of wins and not tournament victories, that's for Ozeki, not Yokozunas.

[Kintamayama 45,136]

I believe that the only way that someone will become a true rival to Asashoryu is if someone shuts him out 2 tournaments in a row, or at the very least wins 2 tournaments in a single season.

A season? What is a Sumo "season"? If Tochiazuma wins this coming tournament, that would be 2 out of 3. Not good enough?

[Guest Kotooshu]

2 out of 3. Not good enough?

As I stated above, I would prefer to see him win 2 STRAIGHT...

But at least 2 Tournament Victories would be a stronger argument. The main problem I have would be basing his Yokozuna promotion simply on a certain amount of wins.

[Asashosakari 19,331]

I don't like it either. It would set a precedent that may later be regretted.

That precedent was set many, many times prior to Futahaguro. Can we please stop acting as though the Kyokai is planning to do something completely alien here? I'm sorry to single you out by chance of your post, Jejima, but this willful ignoring of history by people who really should know better is getting rather tiresome.

[Iwagakki 0]

I'd like to point out that neither Asashoryu, Hakuho, or Kotooshu has beaten Tochiazuma in 2006. Matched with the fact that he yusho'd in January, and posted a 12-3 in March, while beating the yokozuna and both "young guns" handily...He is a bona fide rival to Asashoryu, and is loads better than the other ozeki. The only thing that has kept him from Yokozuna in the past is injuries, not his opposition.

The only thing that kept him from Yokozuna last time around was Miyabiyama, who just has Tochi's number lately. That happens. After all, Tochi's got Shoryu's number... and Hakuho's ... and Kotooshu's...etc

Edited April 28, 2006 by Iwagakki

[Jejima 1,385]

Yes, I am aware of the past - maybe my words could have been chosen better.

But remember after the Futahaguro incident, the bar was raised for Yokozuna promotion (maybe a little too high?), and along with it the 'achievement' of being awarded the tsuna. I don't want them to lower it to make Tochiazuma a Yokozuna. Once lowered, it will be difficult to raise it back again (hence the 'precedent' - which I now realise was used incorrectly).

If Tochiazuma gets his 13 wins, and at best a Jun-Yusho, and then the promotion to Yokozuna, would it be the same as having an asterisk by his achievement?

Imagine if Tochi goes 13-2, and Hakuho goes 14-1 and wins the Jun-Yusho (Asa with the Yusho), and then gets a 13-2 Jun-Yusho in May, would he also be promoted to Yokozuna?

Edited April 28, 2006 by Jejima

[Asashosakari 19,331]

Yes, I am aware of the past - maybe my words could have been chosen better.

But remember after the Futahaguro incident, the bar was raised for Yokozuna promotion (maybe a little too high?), and along with it the 'achievement' of being awarded the tsuna. I don't want them to lower it to make Tochiazuma a Yokozuna.

Sure, it's always a slippery slope. But much like Hananotaka has voiced elsewhere before, I've always thought that career results should carry at least some weight. I'd feel queasy, say, promoting Kotooshu based on something like 13-2J, 13-2Y (first yusho). For a proven Ozeki with already 3 yusho, I'm just not as troubled if the effective promotion criterion is something like 39 wins over three basho with at least one yusho.

Once lowered, it will be difficult to raise it back again (hence the 'precedent' - which I now realise was used incorrectly).

It's only going to be difficult to raise again if Tochiazuma does well as Yokozuna, in which case there's no real reason to do that (unless you think the Kyokai is doing it specifically for Tochiazuma and dreads having to do the same for Hakuho or Kotooshu, which I don't). If he bombs out, voila, easy justification to go back to two consecutive yusho. I think you're underestimating the Kyokai's flexibility in that hypothetical situation.

If Tochiazuma gets his 13 wins, and at best a Jun-Yusho, and then the promotion to Yokozuna, would it be the same as having an asterix by his achievement?

Only in as far as you'd do the same thing for all those pre-Futahaguro guys. In the end, all Yokozuna will be judged on what they've done as Yokozuna, anyway. Wakanohana III got his two yusho, but that isn't helping his historical perception any. In the end, nobody besides us borderline obsessives cares about how easy or difficult the promotion was if the guy goes on to do the job right. (Cloverleaf...)

Imagine if Tochi goes 13-2, and Hakuho goes 14-1 and wins the Jun-Yusho (Asa with the Yusho), and then gets a 13-2 Jun-Yusho in May, would he also be promoted to Yokozuna?

To separate this into two points: I don't worry too much about the possibility that Tochiazuma could go 13-2 without it being at least jun-yusho. That has happened all of five times in the 15-day era, and only one of those five was in the last 40 years. We should just let the Kyokai cross that particular bridge if it ever actually happens again.

As for Hakuho going 14-1J (or 14-1D), followed by 13-2J...I don't think they'd promote him, and I wouldn't be too troubled by that, either. See my personal opinion about career achievements. At any rate, they're very likely not gonna promote anybody with no yusho in the tsunatori run (or worse, no yusho at all as in this scenario), if only because that instantly inflicts the curse of Futahaguro on the unfortunate rikishi.

Edited April 28, 2006 by Asashosakari

[Doitsuyama 1,185]

If Tochiazuma gets his 13 wins, and at best a Jun-Yusho, and then the promotion to Yokozuna, would it be the same as having an asterisk by his achievement?

For me asterisks are not necessarily due to the circumstance of promotion but more because of general strength. Of course this can be valued only when all is said and done, but as I stated before the Kyokai was right on the money with yokozuna promotions with the notable exception of Wakanohana III. Funnily he actually met the strict requirement of two yusho in a row which shows you how much this is worth.

With Tochiazuma, I always was a big fan of him, so naturally I am hoping he gets to yokozuna just to prove his naysayers wrong. (Cloverleaf...) My strength analysis a while ago has shown that he wasn't at a career yokozuna level yet, but he did improve lately.

Edited April 28, 2006 by Doitsuyama

[Gernobono 466]

.....right on the money with yokozuna promotions with the notable exception of Wakanosato III. Funnily he actually

i guess wakanosato III should read wakanohana III (Cloverleaf...)

[Zentoryu 154]

I must be dreaming because I could swear we just had this same exact conversation less than a month ago...

[Kishinoyama 595]

I must be dreaming because I could swear we just had this same exact conversation less than a month ago...

No, I don't think you are dreaming. I hope that the Tochiazuma Yokozuna promotion issue is settled this time one way or another. The worst possible outcome for me is for it not to be settled and to have to wait two more months. (Cloverleaf...)

[karlsmom 0]

I should mention that he was later promoted to Yokozuna after a pathetic 8-7 and then a 14-1 yusho.

So once he won two in a row and wasn't promoted then he was promoted with only 22 wins over two basho.

Regarding Tochiazuma, everyone loves to say that the world wants a Japanese Yokozuna. I think in truth what people want is a Japanese RIVAL to Asashoryu.

I must admit that I agree with this... (Cloverleaf...)

[Tikozan 4]

I think, the council would like to have a yokozuna from Japan. The last japanese yokozuna was retired in 2003 and since this time the number of spectators at the bashos are on the way down.

But I don't no, is this the right way?

[Azumashida 1]

No, I don't think you are dreaming. I hope that the Tochiazuma Yokozuna promotion issue is settled this time one way or another. The worst possible outcome for me is for it not to be settled and to have to wait two more months. :-(

The chance for that to happen is probably comparable to that for Tochiazuma to finish with 13-2 without jun-yusho. Maybe a 12-3 with lost kettei-sen could prompt such a weird situation, but if I remember correctly the YDC has explicitly stated that this time either he becomes yokozuna or he starts again from scratch. Of course they can always revise, but it's highly unlikely...

Edited April 29, 2006 by Azumaryu

[Kintamayama 45,136]

I think, the council would like to have a yokozuna from Japan. The last japanese yokozuna was retired in 2003 and since this time the number of spectators at the bashos are on the way down.

Not true. These last few bashos the number of spectators are on the way up.

[Kishinoyama 595]

The chance for that to happen is probably comparable to that for Tochiazuma to finish with 13-2 without jun-yusho. Maybe a 12-3 with lost kettei-sen could prompt such a weird situation, but if I remember correctly the YDC has explicitly stated that this time either he becomes yokozuna or he starts again from scratch. Of course they can always revise, but it's highly unlikely...

You make some good points and I hope you are right about the YDC but I thought the YDC only makes recommendations. They can't actually promote a rikishi they just recommend it to the Kyokai :-( . Anyway, I honestly am indifferent to whether Tochiazuma gets promoted or not. I like the guy and I like the fact he has gotten away from some of the the Henka-ish moves at the tachiai. This being said, he is still not one of my favorite rikishi. I just hope that his record is good enough or bad enough that we won't be talking about this for two more months. (In jonokuchi...)

[Asashosakari 19,331]

You make some good points and I hope you are right about the YDC but I thought the YDC only makes recommendations. They can't actually promote a rikishi they just recommend it to the Kyokai :-( .

Yes, their positive assessments are only recommendations, but the negative ones are pretty much gospel, as far as I understand it. If Tochiazuma, say, goes 12-3 this time (cancelling his tsunatori once and for all in the eyes of the YDC), then 13-2Y in July, and they don't recommend him for promotion after that, the Kyokai cannot overrule them.

I suppose it's possible that they'll recommend him for promotion after this basho (e.g. with the dreaded 13-2 non-jun-yusho), and the Kyokai decides not to, but I consider that very unlikely. As long as the YDC sticks to their guns by demanding a decisive performance from Tochi one way or the other, we'll be spared this same discussion next time (unless it's about a different Ozeki, of course). And I agree with Azumaryu, I think they won't backpedal again, unless the circumstances of Tochi's performance are really outrageous.

[Tikozan 4]

I think, the council would like to have a yokozuna from Japan. The last japanese yokozuna was retired in 2003 and since this time the number of spectators at the bashos are on the way down.

Not true. These last few bashos the number of spectators are on the way up.

Sorry, I heard it on TV at Eurosport from the german reporter an on the TV I saw, that the halls are not sold out like in former times.

[Kishinoyama 595]

Sorry, I heard it on TV at Eurosport from the german reporter an on the TV I saw, that the halls are not sold out like in former times.

Actually the statement you heard is true. Back in the early to mid 90's their were a long string of sold out tournaments. This had to do with a lot of young exciting rikishi coming up to challenge what was considered the 'old guard'. When Takanohana emerged as the dominate rikishi people stopped showing up for the tournaments for whatever reason. I personally am very happy more people seem to be interested in sumo for whatever reason. Us dedicated followers (yes I include myself here :-( ) of a sport will support it even when it is not a fad or 'popular' anymore. I guess you could say that sumo is getting 'rediscovered' again. Like it ever went away (In jonokuchi...)