Hakuho

[_the_mind_ 0]

How can they promote Hakuho who has only 1 yusho?

That is not really Yokozuna like. He has to show the ability to dominate a basho. Right now his wins are not impressive enough.

because the YDC said they would? 13 wins 3 basho's in a row(and possibly a 4th time) isnt being dominant? do you know how rare zensho's are?

[Zuikakuyama 1]

I dont know why you keep bringing up his non-ozeki record to support your Yokozuna promotion argument.

It has absolutely no bearing on Yokozuna promotion. Nada. Zero. Zilch.

It has only been in the last 4 basho where he has put up the really good numbers. If you look further back, his records are defintely not yokozuna quality (or even ozeki). Granted, his numbers in the last 4 bashos are impressive, but those are Ozeki numbers, not yokozuna.

This is only his 2nd basho as Ozeki, his run of good form (i.e., double digit wins) is only 4 bashos, and by promoting him with only 2 ozeki basho, he is going to set the record for the least number of Ozeki bashos before promotion, so in my book, he really needs to earn promotion the hard way.

[SalParadise 0]

As much as I understand that non-Ozeki records don't count toward Yokozuna promotion, I can't help but keep this irrational nagging feeling that were Hakuho to have finished 14-1 this basho, losing only to Asashoryuu, with the Yokozuna going zensho, that they would look a lot more favorably on Hakuho were he to have a second yusho (as sekiwake) rather than his current standing with the junyusho in that basho.

We'll never know, of course, but (sekiwake) yusho -> yusho -> junyusho seems a lot more likely to end in promotion than junyusho -> yusho -> junyusho. Especially since the only yusho was won when the Yokozuna wasn't competing.

[_the_mind_ 0]

I dont know why you keep bringing up his non-ozeki record to support your Yokozuna promotion argument.

obviously refering to me. and I brought it up because if they are looking for "yokozuna quality" and not going to require 2 yusho then everything is subjectively looked at. it just is. its subjective or we would not even be having this conversation. if it wasnt subjective then it would be "two yusho or no yokozuna period". and that is obviously not the case. the term "yusho equivalent" is a subjective statement. and if one is going to allow that to be a qualification to make yokozuna then why not talk about the extremely recent past of his? it isnt like he did that stuff as a Maegashira. it isnt like no rikishi has ever been promoted to yokozuna without 2 consecutive yusho. so therefore the immediate past is taken into consideration.

for your information i am not supporting any arguement, i replied to Asashosakari-san's post as just something to think about. take a downer.

Edited July 20, 2006 by _the_mind_

[aderechelsea 125]

as much as i like him i would prefer to see Hakuho get this Yusho and get promoted, rather than see a promotion with "equivalents". It's not that the years are putting a pressure on him . He will have many chances to become Yokozuna if he lives up to his potential.

i hope he can win 2 Yushos in the next 5-6 tournaments and then we could talk about solid chances of promotion.

In my book (not nesessarily aproved by everyone) a Yokozuna should better prove himself before going up there rather than dissapointing everyone afterwards and giving his career a short span.

patience is a virtue when it comes to promotions.

btw ... Hakuho haven't been in makekoshi territory since Sandanme he was 17 years old (I won't count as makekoshi last year's Nagoya basho when he injured his ankle because he was 6-2 by then). He didn't even have a losing record when he went for the first time in the joi-jin, or Sanyaku.

He is definately "ozeki-yokozuna material" but he needs to improve his "yusho-winning finishing". We (or should i say "I") don't want him looking like Kotooshu in a year or so ...

[SalParadise 0]

Kotooshuu is still 23 or 24, right? He's sported a whopping one makekoshi in his sumo career (as a shin-komosubi), and after his shin-ozeki 10 win debut (which is what is allegedly expected from an ozeki) he got injured, but still hasn't sported a make-koshi.

I realize that he was expected to do better, but I think it is very hasty to call him a disappointment -- he's been no miyabiyama, after all. If he stops showing any improvement, and continues this trend of mediocrity (for an ozeki), then we can start talking. In the meantime, it's only his 4th basho as an ozeki, and three of them have been spent in varying degrees of injury.

The problem with high expectations is that they set rikishi (or anyone, really) up for equivalently high amounts of disappointment at not meeting those expectations.

Take kisenosato for instance. He was coming up around the same time as Kotooshuu, they shot up the banzuke together, but Kisenosato slowed down while Kotooshuu did not. Kotooshuu became this poster boy, was all over TV, got to Ozeki, and Kisenosato fell into the background. Now Kisenosato isn't a disappointment any way you paint it. He is, after all, only 20 years old. But the expectations of greatness, especially in comparison to the pre-injury Kotooshuu, set him up unfairly for a fall.

And if the current batch of Ozeki is any indication of what constitutes 'Ozeki Material' then Kotooshuu has about 8 kyujo/kadoban to go through before catching up with Chiyotaikai and Kaio in that sense. I realize that he isn't living up to our expectations, but really, being injured and still making KK for the past 3 basho is a setback -- not necessarily the peak of his career in sumo starting to turn into a descent...

[aderechelsea 125]

i am not calling Kotooshu a disappointment.

my point was that he got a couple of jun-yushos in a row but then deflated a bit.

i just don't want to see Hakuho doing the same

[SalParadise 0]

Kotooshuu, I hate to say, has never looked like he could win a yusho. When he did end up in a playoff against Asashoryuu, it wasn't because he caught Asashoryuu, but rather because Asashoryuu caught him when he choked. Most basho he seems to start with a loss, either through nerves or otherwise, and he doesn't seem to handle the pressure well.

Last year in Nagoya he beat Asashoryuu on Nakabi as a Komosubi, but he wasn't ahead of Asashoryuu once the whole basho. And he lost on senshuuraku to seal his fate without even forcing a playoff. Choke.

Next basho he went 12-0, looked unbeatable, and then choked the next two days letting Asashoryuu come back from a 2 loss deficit. Forced the playoff with a win on his final day, and then choked again. Lost twice to the Yokozuna in the same tournament, with either win resulting in him claiming the yusho.

Next basho? Choked on the first day. Ended up with an 11-4 record, losing to some mediocre opponents despite beating the Yokozuna somehow.

And then? Promoted to Ozeki, loses on the first day, and loses his last three bouts. Choked.

He was never inflated from where I was sitting, at least not by anyone but the media and starry-eyed fans who were willing to overlook some glaring weaknesses in his sumo because he was pounding out good records and showing flashes of brilliance against the Yokozuna.

Hakuho hasn't done the same. He's won a yusho. He's won a kettei-sen. He's managed to look good doing his brand of sumo in the past 4 basho in a majority of his bouts. Kotooshuu looks good when he's good, wins sometimes with hatakikomi when he isn't, and the rest of the time (especially against Kisenosato) looks God-awful.

Then again, Hakuho was flashing his mediocrity while Kotooshuu was making his meteoric rise, so rikishi can clearly change, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge either Kotooshuu or Hakuho long-term on the basis of a (relatively) small sample-size.

[aderechelsea 125]

He was never inflated from where I was sitting, at least not by anyone but the media and starry-eyed fans who were willing to overlook some glaring weaknesses in his sumo because he was pounding out good records and showing flashes of brilliance against the Yokozuna.

that's about 80% of the people who are watching sumo actually .....

[Ikkakujuu 0]

First serious injury has major effect on self-confidence. Even on the golden boy Hakuho. The only difference between him and Kotooshu is that the latter secceeded in becoming ozeki before the injury. I clearly remember Hakuho's results after the injury-not so impressive as now.

Kotooshu problem is that he rose too fast and had no time to gather enough experience to handle "choking". Now being an ozeki he may never succeed in this because of the constant pressure of this ranк. I hope that he can grow mentally but it's becoming harder and harder with time. I think he has to go for de-geiko with Hakuho, Baruto, Kisenosato and Asa in order to stop choking. The difficult part is that being an ozeki he should have a positive record against Kisenosato and Baruto in practice. I don't know. All my hopes are that Kotooshu, Baruto and Hakuho grow up to their potential and have no injuries. It would be a miraculous four-some on the top isn't it?

[sumofan 6]

How can they promote Hakuho who has only 1 yusho?

That is not really Yokozuna like. He has to show the ability to dominate a basho. Right now his wins are not impressive enough.

because the YDC said they would? 13 wins 3 basho's in a row(and possibly a 4th time) isnt being dominant? do you know how rare zensho's are?

Asa seems to have no trouble collecting them, though.

He has won several Zensho Yusho in the last 2 years.

[sumofan 6]

Actually, even if he goes 12-3 in the end, if he gets jun yusho that could technically still be enough to make him yokozuna. (Applauding...)

What technicality is that? Yusho-equivalent has meant "playoff loss" in the past, and nowadays it's being expanded to mean "13-2" as well - mainly because 13-2 is almost inevitably the second-best record if it's not enough to win the yusho. Nobody ever said anything about promoting Hakuho (or anybody else) based on a 12-3 jun-yusho, at least not seriously.

My mistake. You are right

For a moment I thought it was yusho and jun yusho or equivalent.

Of course it is 2 yusho or equivalent, typically meaning 27 wins over 2 basho.

[Shimpu 0]

Someone mentioned (probably Doitsuyama) that all rikishi who were worth yokozuna rank got it sooner or later so a little delay means nothing. If he is destinated (it looks like he is) for the very top he will get there after this basho, Kyushu or next year. The best instance comes from Dai-Takanohana. (Applauding...)

Edited July 20, 2006 by Shimpu

[SalParadise 0]

Asashoryu is the lone Yokozuna, and has been for quite a while, not to mention being at the peak of his game (until this injury recently), with 16 yushos over 32 basho, or something absurd like that. Last year he broke three records with one fell swoop (wins in a year, capturing all the yushos in a single year, as well as 7 straight yushos), and absolutely dominated.

This is not normal. Just because Asashoryu can do it doesn't mean that it is a standard thing, or that zensho yushos are common. It's just one method of starting to comprehend how good Asashoryu is in comparison to his competition.

I hope he loses tomorrow though. I've got seats next to the hanamichi for tomorrow, and seats for senshuraku, and don't want it to be decided until the last day. So everyone root for Kaio to perform a miracle, so that I can throw my durned Zabuton for once.

[Flying_Monkey 0]

I'm a big fan of Hakuho... and I don't think he lacks charisma, he has an aura about him which says 'yokozuna'... but he's still young and says silly things and doesn't always get his tactics right. I've been slighly unimpressed with him in this basho, but this is only in comparison with awesome performances previously... he is still performing very well. I just want him to be perfect, so that no-one could possibly argue with the promotion... even as a fan, I'd prefer him to get promoted with an undeniable case than because he's 'good enough'.

[Sashohitowa 6]

SalParadise, true.

And that's why I believe that if someone wants to be promoted to Yokozuna, he must achieve results common to Asashoryu's. No matter if it is Hakuho, Tochiazuma or whoever.

Just wining one basho and after that having two consecutive good results is not enough. Not enough to share the rank with an Yokozuna like Asashoryu.

If you are going to be the "second best" at 90% of the tournaments, then the "second best" rank is good enough for you.

Edited July 20, 2006 by Sashohikufuhen

[SalParadise 0]

That's an excellent point, and I entirely agree with you.

I just hope I'm still in Japan when it happens.

[Asashosakari 19,657]

Just wining one basho and after that having two consecutive good results is not enough. Not enough to share the rank with an Yokozuna like Asashoryu.

He'd not really be sharing the rank just with Asashoryu though, but with every yokozuna who came before them. SalParadise made the point already, of course, but again: Asashoryu is an exception, both in the context of today's competition as well as historically.

Nobody thinks Kashiwado was a bad yokozuna because he had to play second fiddle to Taiho most of the time. That's just the nature of the beast...it's certainly possible in theory to have two equally strong rikishi who in turn dominate the entire rest of the field, but that's not how things turn out most of the time; instead you get one guy who's just super-dominant, plus maybe 1 or 2 others who are also pretty darn good - and would be capable of being super-dominant themselves if it wasn't for that top guy. The curse of being born too early or too late. :-P None of the veteran Ozeki really approach that status of course (although both Kaio and Tochiazuma almost look[ed] like it, whenever they manage to stay injury-free for more than 5 minutes), but Hakuho might well do. Would it really be a travesty if he became yokozuna even if Asashoryu continues to dominate overall? (I'm just playing devil's advocate here...I think it's almost as likely that he'd replace Asashoryu as top dog in the not-so-far-off future, given his 5 year age advantage.)

I suppose this is just the sumo equivalent of baseball's endless "small hall" argument, and we'll never see any kind of consensus on this. Some people think that only potential dai-yokozuna should become yokozuna in the first place, and some others (like me) think there's plenty of space for "mediocre" five-yusho yokozuna, as well.

Oh well. (Chucking salt...)

Edited July 20, 2006 by Asashosakari

[Gusoyama 104]

Granted, his numbers in the last 4 bashos are impressive, but those are Ozeki numbers, not yokozuna.

I beg to differ. 40 wins in 3 bashos has been done 101 times(including Hakuho), and only 7(again, including Hakuho) times has it been done by a rikishi who is still an ozeki in his 3rd basho.

53 wins(still possible) over 4 bashos has only been done 83 times, and only 3 times by a rikishi who was an Ozeki in the third basho. Two of these instances overlap, and belong to a certain Takanohana.

[Ryukaze 0]

I agree with er....myself here (lol) To me the terms "Yokozuna" or "Ozeki" are simply criteria, and either you meet them or you don't. Considering the magnitude of what it means once you are referred to as "Yokozuna" or "Ozeki" I think it's important for these criteria to be strict (with little if no room for exception.) I think this principle also serves the sport akin to the "invisible hand" in economics. If Hakuho were to be promoted right now on the basis of just being good enough, ( back to back 13-2 performance with a yusho or jun yusho or whatever.....) while we may think he deserves it (and you could definately argue this, under normal circumstances he would be worthy of the rank were the top guy not ripping of zensho's) we would have a case of what Asashosakari spoke of......a mediocre Yokozuna and a superior one. On the other hand if he is held to the set standard, he would need to get a zensho yusho (speaking theoretically here) in order to reach the set standard of 2 consecutive yusho (and thus be on par with the other Yokozuna...) So hopefully this all makes sense, and I have no problem with one Yokozuna being superior over another as long as they both meet the same criteria, but as I've said I think the "invisible hand" should work to prevent this (i.e. a Yokozuna who is inferior should not be able to achieve promotion if the guy already Yokozuna is far superior to him and winning all the tournaments with perfect records etc.) granted there are exceptions (injury, the superior guy being promoted after, etc..) but essentially I think thats the way it should work......whew

[Tameiki 185]

He'd not really be sharing the rank just with Asashoryu though, but with every yokozuna who came before them. SalParadise made the point already, of course, but again: Asashoryu is an exception, both in the context of today's competition as well as historically.

Nobody thinks Kashiwado was a bad yokozuna because he had to play second fiddle to Taiho most of the time.

I agree that this is likely to be an endless discussion, but I would just like to add that:

(1) Asashoryu seems to become more and more exceptional with every basho. Someone on the French forum who is in Nagoya for the first time stressed yesterday how there is something special about him that makes you understand that it is logical that he be the Yokozuna. He added that this could only be paralleled - among those he saw there - with what emanates from Chiyonofuju and Takanohana (see arturo's comment on Info-Sumo). Until now, Hakuho - but we all agree that he is still young - does not seem to have this charismatic dimension.

(2) I don't think the parallel with Kashiwado is appropriate. Kashiwado and Taiho were both promoted after the 1961 Aki Basho, Kashiwado as the 47th Yokozuna and Taiho as the 48th. Looking back at Kashiwado' results, the question may be - rhetorically and respectfully - asked whether he would have been promoted to Yokozuna one year later, Taiho having won 4 of the following 6 basho (77-13) while his own performance was 66-24 with 2 jun-yusho. Another parallel could have been envisaged with Torinoumi Yokozuna, but he was injured after his 4th basho and never fully recovered until he retired two years later. So the most appropriate one would be Sadanoyama Yokozuna who - sadly - won two of his three basho as Yokozuna when Taiho was injured.

In conclusion, there is still time to see if Hakuho (or anybody else) will be worthy of becoming a Yokozuna, but it seems obvious to me the promotion has to be based on the most objective criteria possible. It looks like until now the Kyokai has generally avoided promoting to Yokozuna a Sekitori that could not consistently compete with the existing one(s), and FWIW I would rather suffer the pains of the waiting than those of the possible disillusion.

[ikishima 0]

We all have opinions on if he should get promoted. If I were to chuck in my salt (Laughing...) , I would say 13-2 he is in, anything else no. At this point that would mean that he would have to have a clean record against all ozeki and Asashoryu, a difficult but possible task.

I looked at the Kensho standings and he is 6th. That is 10 behind Taikai who has one more lose. I would assume that if there was any excitement over his yokozuna run he would be up near the top. I guess it just isn't that big of a deal? :-P

[Sashohitowa 6]

I agree with er....myself here (lol) To me the terms "Yokozuna" or "Ozeki" are simply criteria, and either you meet them or you don't.

Agree with this as well, the criteria should be strict - and no compromise should be made "just" because the ultimate Yokozunna is too strong and won't let someone make the needed yushos.